John Mayhew on Trespass

Tom Ozric wrote: John Anthony's rather 'raw' production doesn't help things, especially concerning the drums....... Perhaps Mayhew was playing material beyond his capabilities, but I don't think his work dragged the album down. Would've been nice had Collins joined at this point, but he didn't. Put it this way, Mayhew was a vast improvement on Jonathan Silver.

The key difference is Guy Evans continued to play on and has not stopped, John Mayhew did not.
So unless you take a snapshot comparison right at the exact time both were active or anyone else for that matter, Comparisons will mean nothing.

I think this thread is taking on 'dead horse' status now.

As a drummer of 30 years I think the criticism of JM's drumming is over the top.  "Can't play"?  "Bad"?  Comments like that should be reserved for someone like the Shaggs's drummer when they first started out (Supreme Mistress of the oblique polyrhythm ).  Pro musicians are always strong players (at least before ProTools and autotune) and prog players especially so. JM was a damn good drummer, if not in the same league of Phil and Bill (very few are).

John's performance was expressive and helped create atmosphere.  Who cares about a bit of looseness and a bit of tastelessness?  What's wrong with a bit of dirt? Must everything be prissy perfect all the time?  I say this as an old tragic of the most notorious perfectionists around - Crimmo and Uncle Frank. It's not their perfection that I enjoy but their creativity, atmosphere, flair and intelligence.

Trespass has loads of character, arguably more atmospheric than other Genesis releases, and John M was part of that, warts and all. It wasn't all JM's warts either.  Peter G was pitchy at times but that didn't diminish his dynamic performance on the album to my ear either, not to mention fluid timing from the whole band. 

Stagnation is outstanding with that beautiful middle section. Looking for Someone was another great track with fun drums. I don't understand all this talk about him being circumspect either.  He laid out when he was supposed to and when he came in he sounded like he was really hammering those tubs. At times JM reminded me of Moonie (compliment) - crazy call-responses all over the place. Wasn't so keen on his overplaying in Visions of Angels - hardly circumspect - but apparently he didn't arrange the drum parts.  Of course, if we were going to shoot proggers for overreaching, it would be sorry state of affairs

I love Phil's drumming - always did - and I appreciate that Genesis wanted a jazzier, more sophisticated drummer who needed less supervision.  However, I agree with those who doubted that Phil would have improved the album. It's a false assumption. Better is not always better, if you get my drift.

Xonty wrote: . Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut,

ghost_of_morphy wrote: Xonty wrote: . Sort of like Mike Giles on the King Crimson debut, This is heresy of the rankest sort.

I have no idea why Mike Giles is so underappreciated. His timing on Scizhoid Man was simply fantastic. I feel like starting a thread just to address this.