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Topic ClosedIs Robert Fripp Overrated?
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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:30
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

"Ease of playing" and "complexity" are not the same thing. So far you haven't proven anything with anything. You have not used any technical terms or discussed any objective characteristics. Saying "I have proven you wrong" doesn't prove anything.


Take a look at this, where's that complexity? And don't tell me you hear it's complex, if you can read tabs you see it's not very complex http://www.songsterr.com/a/wsa/king-crimson-fracture-tab-s40543t0

[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] I never said he would play or be able to play this or that. All I'm saying is this: you don't know whether or not he would not be able to play this or that. You keep making assumptions, you fill in the gaps by relying on insufficient information.
You said something like you're pretty sure he'd nail it. But you can't prove that, all you have are KC albums.[/QUOTE]

I never even implied that. I said "maybe he could", but I never said "he would". Again, don't assume. Go over what was actually said.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 05:30
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Points: 494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:36
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

 
I never even implied that. I said "maybe he could", but I never said "he would". Again, don't assume. Go over what was actually said.


your words  "I'm sure Robert could nail that rendition of Caprice if he chose to".
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 05:41
^ OK, ... then I relied on insufficient information. My bad.

... But I never said I was 100% sure ... Wink LOL ... but I'm still sure. Fast hammer-ons, pull-offs, arpeggios, etc. aren't that tough to handle. Practice is all you need.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Well, you could help the discussion by explaining what part of Fracture makes it so tough. You are not doing that.  Ok, I will illustrate.  This is what you said as explanation for what makes Fracture complex:


"Chord structures, execution (not just of arpeggios), whole-tone melodies, composition format, etc."

Ok, what chord structures?  Why are they complex? Why are they tough to play?  Can you elaborate?  In what way is the execution demanding?  If I claimed a certain song was tough to sing and somebody asked me what part of it was, I would certainly be able to pinpoint, be it the range or the amount of distortion used, the breath control required, the intricacy of the melismas, etc.
Fair enough. LSDisease, here we go.

1) Chord structures - I was actually thinking "unconventional use of chords" rather than "complexity", so forget that one. (However, this one does give rise to the complexity of execution.)

2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder.

3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried.

4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places.



So, as you can see, the idea of complexity has many sides to it.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 06:36
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 06:05
What about sweeps, is that a regular feature in his repertoire? Forgive me if it's an,impertinent question as I am not a guitarist. I do want to point out that from what I have read of new standard tuning, Fripp aimed to be able to play guitar like a piano, in other words for classical music.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 06:16
^ I don't know. I shall look into it.
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 09:50
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

^^^ and I'll take an original composer over some "look at me mum" shredder any day of the week. I grew up all excited about long haired guitarists who could play really fast and use classical references in their music. Then I discovered the likes of Lifeson, Gilmour and Fripp and all those 'heroes' just seemed a bit... you know..

Plus they mostly made predictable sh*t music imo...
Lifeson is better than the remaining two.


I've heard people say Lifeson is the weak link in Rush. I can't imagine Rush with anyone else tbh.
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Points: 494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:10
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder.  


certain parts may appear hard to play cos they go fast but that's all

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried.


Bill Bruford once said that in KC nothing was set, you were just supposed to know. I believe Fripp didn't write it down, he took his guitar and played something like that off the top of his head.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places.
 


you don't have to have some special abilities to write a song not based on a verse chorus verse chorus pattern.


Edited by LSDisease - July 29 2014 at 10:16
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Points: 494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:15
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

 

I've heard people say Lifeson is the weak link in Rush. I can't imagine Rush with anyone else tbh.


Probably those people are deaf. Or their ears are the weak link in their bodies.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:29
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Regardless of whether you care for his music or otherwise, Fripp has always steadfastly refused to fill that 'heroic virtuoso' role created for him by Rawk's star system many years ago. (His sitting down to play was, amongst other things, a reaction to such conditioning) Bob has simply too much intelligence, dignity and Integrity to stoop to conquer a marketplace he clearly views with considerable suspicion. This makes him a deeply unpopular figure within the music entertainment industry. Long may he continue to get up the noses of Rock's archly conservative rank and file air guitarists everywhere. (You know who you are)
I agree whole heartily that Fripp despised the practices of the music industry that kept many a dollar out of the pockets of artists, but I believe that Mr. Fripp coping a seat maybe due more to his 'eccentric' traits than any conscious revolution. After all, the man was said had many quirks. Wink


Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 10:33
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Points: 466 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:39
Definitely not! An artistic guitarist of the highest order! Though I don't agree with everything he's done by any means, I applaud his willingness to go out their on the edges and not conform to expectations.
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Points: 2619 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 11:20
Rating RF?! Underrate maybe but overrate..... I dont understand some of members. I saw strange posts these days in PA. One guy said "I hate Yes" and other guy write "Genesis hit me" (in positive attitude) and now "Robert Fripp is overrated". I think some guys come in wrong address!! Maybe some of you dont like Progressive music. Maybe some guys try to show themselves "Different Guys". Who knows.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 13:46
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


2) Execution. One of the tough things about "Fracture" is the complexity of execution of certain parts of the piece. For example, the moto perpetuo section. The finger-playing of that section felt so awkward, and the section is so fast, that I've spent hours trying to nail it and failed miserably. And the part after it where two strings alternate at a fast speed is also tough to execute. I believe that's where Robert uses cross-picking. I've tried cross-picking it, but it made the playing even harder.  
certain parts may appear hard to play cos they go fast but that's all
You've read the part where I mentioned the chemistry of speed, technique, and awkward fingerplay, right? If you play a note really fast, things don't get much more difficult. Speed alone doesn't add to the difficulty. We are talking playing whole tones here.

Try playing the whole piece yourself.
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

3) Whole-tone melodies. Many guitar players are comfortable with major/minor tonalities and/or modes. I've heard a few jazz and blues guitar players saying that when you write a solo for a guitar, you use the root, 3rd, and 7th as the most effective notes. But what about whole tones? Whole tones is a territory unfamiliar to a lot of us. It is difficult to write something good and original using them. I've tried.
Bill Bruford once said that in KC nothing was set, you were just supposed to know. I believe Fripp didn't write it down, he took his guitar and played something like that off the top of his head.
I think it's "said" (as in "mentioned"), not "set", but I may be wrong, though it's that change of words that changes the meaning of the sentence.

I believe Bill mentioned this kind of philosophy when it comes to improvisation. The Crims weren't all about improvisation. Nothing is said when you improvise. You are just supposed to know what notes to hit, what chord is to be played next, etc.
Originally posted by LSDisease LSDisease wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


4) Composition format - this isn't a verse-chorus-verse-chorus -type song. This is a piece where motifs recur in unpredictable places.
you don't have to have some special abilities to write a song not based on a verse chorus verse chorus pattern.
You are right, you don't. Here by complexity I mean something opposite to simplicity. It's easy to comply with an already given conventional format, but to write something creative form-wise requires a direction and an imagination. If you deviate from something like AABB or AABA, if you write something like ABABCDE, then you are making your piece more complicated in form.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 13:51
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 14:11
Talent wise? Yes

As a musician? Well...I guess that is up for personal debate, KC is still a top 20 band for me, even as my tastes have changed and found so many more bands over time, and they have one of stronger discogs in my book, so he's pretty good as a musician/composer I say!

I'll grant, when you are made out to be god by default you're probably a bit overrated, and I don't think he's the best but I love KC and think Fripp is pretty dope. 
Many great points have been made already so no need to add on to why he's pretty dope IMO


Edited by JJLehto - July 29 2014 at 14:14
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What makes a guitarist 'rated' to people to start with? I'm losing the theme of many of these discussions as members seem to have a preset idea of what an 'overrated' guitarist should be, be it a speed player or slower more complex player (hint) or perhaps someone more melodic that relies more heavily on the techniques that he mastered and avoids those he hasn't and so on. Whatever you perceive to be a 'rated' (very good) guitarist with something special in your eyes makes him 'overrated' (great). Perhaps it's time to retire this word 'overrated' and opt for another superlative. Forum philosophers, do have any suggestions?

Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 14:37
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Points: 28029 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 14:35
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Trouble is the sitting down thing becomes a statement so it still plays into an image and helping sell records. I'm not sure that he is viewed with any more suspicion than the many individuals that are in rock bands who are generally not always the 'nicest' people.  Jolly good wheeze to be able to sit down on the job and make it look like some high integrity.IMO


How is a highly accomplished rock guitarist who sits down to play at a live concert 'playing into an image and helping sell records? The foregoing is the antithesis of Rawk aesthetics: Jumping around, showing off, pulling faces and maybe trashing yer gear is de rigueur for the genre. To paraphrase another hippy (Bill Hicks): are you saying Bob was cunningly playing the sexy but sedentary axe hero dollar?Wink

I am deeply cynical about these things. You are painting some picture of some guy who puts music entirely first and doesn't care about projecting any sort of image. Sitting down is basically saying 'I am a virtuoso' is it not?
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:19
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

What makes a guitarist 'rated' to people to start with? I'm losing the theme of many of these discussions as members seem to have a preset idea of what an 'overrated' guitarist should be, be it a speed player or slower more complex player (hint) or perhaps someone more melodic that relies more heavily on the techniques that he mastered and avoids those he hasn't and so on. Whatever you perceive to be a 'rated' (very good) guitarist with something special in your eyes makes him 'overrated' (great). Perhaps it's time to retire this word 'overrated' and opt for another superlative. Forum philosophers, do have any suggestions?
What is "rated" in the context of these discussions? That's what confuses me in your application of the word. "Rated" to me sounds like you've given a guitarist this-many stars. "Overrated" and "underrated" aren't exactly about stars. Pick up a dictionary.

un·der·rate
ˌəndə(r)ˈrāt/
past tense: underrated; past participle: underrated
  1. underestimate the extent, value, or importance of (someone or something).
    "a very underrated film"
    synonyms:undervalue, underestimate, underappreciate, do an injustice to, sell short,play down, understate, minimize, diminish, downgrade, trivialize More
    antonyms:exaggerate

o·ver·rate
ˌōvərˈrāt/
past tense: overrated; past participle: overrated
  1. have a higher opinion of (someone or something) than is deserved.
    "dismissing the work as pompous and overrated"
    synonyms:overestimate, overvalue, think too much of, attach too much importance to,praise too highly More
    antonyms:underestimate


If I understand your post correctly, "rated" isn't the same as "very good". "Overrated" isn't the same as "great". Plus, I don't like it when people rely on mere constructs and use them in arguments.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 15:20
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:28
^Fair enough, the constructs were made to make the argument easier if you take in the argument in the spirit of which it was intended (not serious). If you want to stay in a world of semantics and play English instructor instead of simplifying long running reoccurring go nowhere arguments, you are free to do so.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:31
^ Constructs never make an argument easier. They are just that - figments of our perception. And there is no need to put me down for trying to get everyone to agree on some definitions, because it is usually the lack of understanding of some words that makes us all sound like we are not speaking the same language, which leads to more confusion as a discussion progresses (or regresses ) or remains stagnant.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 15:32
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:33
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


^ Constructs never make an argument easier. They are just that - figments of our perception. And there is no need to put me down for trying to get everyone to agree on some definitions, because it is usually the lack of understanding of some words that makes us all sound like we are not speaking the same language, which leads to more confusion as a discussion progresses (or regresses ) or remains stagnant.
Refer to my previous post.

Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 15:34
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Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:35
^ None of your posts serve as counter-arguments to what I've just said.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 29 2014 at 17:28
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