PA Songwriters'/Composers' Association |
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: June 30 2014 at 15:51 | |||
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coffeeintheface
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 02 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 397 |
Posted: July 09 2014 at 01:57 | |||
http://soundcloud.com/n-quixote/pink-meat-moment-jam-session/s-R5Knz
Came up with this one in a jam session last month, layering some electronics on top of a guitar progression
Edited by coffeeintheface - July 09 2014 at 02:00 |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 09 2014 at 02:34 | |||
All in all, I was just playing around with some ideas. Thanks for your feedback. Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 09 2014 at 02:34 |
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: July 09 2014 at 10:54 | |||
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 09 2014 at 10:56 | |||
^ Alright, then. If rubato is the only way to go in my case, then ... .
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 09 2014 at 10:56 |
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: July 09 2014 at 11:06 | |||
Well, not the only way, but an effective one. The metronome is the go to practice tool for a lot of musicians.
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:18 | |||
Let's talk about lyrics. What is your lyric writing process? Who are your favorite lyricists and poets? What qualities do you aim for?
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:23 | |||
Why, excellent question! ... I have quite a load to dump here in that department, so stay tuned.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:34 | |||
I always look up to guys like Scott Walker and Peter Hammill because they are poets. They have that magic touch that brings meaning, lyric-writing skill, and aesthetics together. I don't want to sound straightforward and prosaic. Those are usually the qualities that you would expect from a preachy writer, so I stay away from those. However, a songwriting team from the US and UK managed to turned that around.
Check out this clip and skip to the part where Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine discuss how their songs for Rumours were written. I watched the video and thought: "F$%k! That's so simple!" They just write what's on their minds, never overthink anything, put it down on paper, and attach it to music regardless of how happy or sad it sounds (mostly happy). So, a direct writing approach has to meet poetry. Transparency and aesthetics. I expect this to be difficult. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I may say something else. In the meantime, I'd like to know what others write about and ... pretty much the same as what Polymorphia wants to know.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 20:26 |
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: July 10 2014 at 17:00 | |||
My band Dinner Guests (I am one of two writers in the band) tends to write stories, presenting a character and revealing a conflict within them. For my non-Dinner Guests stuff, I tend to go for more complex, modern poetry-influenced lyrics. I tend to go for themes, motifs, and symbols. An image may show up multiple times in a song and mean something different each time.
I think my favorite lyricist is Jeff Tweedy from Wilco. His lyrics are dense and often surreal, but there's always a purpose for every line and they're a joy to analyze (particularly on Yankee Hotel Foxtrot). Other lyricists I like include Paul Simon, Sufjan Stevens, and, more recently, Adam Savage (Parquet Courts), Matt Berninger (The National), and Ezra Koenig (Vampire Weekend). For poets, I like John Berryman, Donald Justice (worth looking into for your approach, Andrey), and Sylvia Plath. I generally like lyrics I can chew on and explore. As far as process, I generally try to capture the emotion and images the song evokes and a concept usually arises from that. Then I write draft upon draft until I'm tired of working on it. |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 10 2014 at 17:27 | |||
I will! Thanks for the suggestion.
I remember Roger Waters saying that he writes the music first, and out of that his lyrics start to come. I tried to understand that approach, but every effort I've made (there were a few, though) felt forced because I knew that I've jammed the lyrics into the song. Some time I will try something different: writing evocative, sentimental* music (verse, chorus, verse, chorus), and on top of that I will do it the Bee Gees / Eno way - sing some syllables and/or words that might go well with the music. Music and lyrics should flow together nicely; the lyrics should have a rhythm that won't slip off your head, have a bit of a steady punch to them.
* And I'm not ashamed of writing pseudo-emotional stuff at this point of learning songwriting. (Going against Thom Yorke's grain here.)
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 10 2014 at 17:28 |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 02:12 | |||
Alright, let's try to extend this discussion.
Does anyone here tend to overthink when they write lyrics?
Do you write choruses? Or do you just write stanzas or free verses? Single lines? Do you bother with rhymes? Do all your choruses in a song have the same lyrics? |
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Nick Dilley
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2012 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 173 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:38 | |||
You can check Within a Reverie (my group) out on FB (facebook.com/withinareverie) or bandcamp: http://withinareverie.bandcamp.com/releases
that info is probably in my signature. but i don't remember and don't want to press the back button. Edited by Nick Dilley - July 13 2014 at 20:38 |
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
soundcloud.com/withinareverie withinareverie.blogspot.com facebook.com/withinareverie Twitter: @WithinaReverie |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:41 | |||
^ Do you write for the band? Care to share some writing experience?
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Nick Dilley
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2012 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 173 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:59 | |||
I am the primary writer for my group, yes. I guess I try to take a poetic perspective on whatever topic appeals to me. If I want to write about a topic that is somewhat cliche I try and make other aspects of the song novel however I can. I'm influenced a lot by the Romantics, Impressionism and traditional Asian aesthetics. I don't think those things concretely manifest in my work, necessarily. But I'm sure the influence is there. Do you mind if I post a lengthy discussion of one of my pieces or would a link be more appropriate? |
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
soundcloud.com/withinareverie withinareverie.blogspot.com facebook.com/withinareverie Twitter: @WithinaReverie |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:01 | |||
^ As long as you are discussing your influences and/or the process of writing music and/or lyrics, no one would mind if you talk about it here. That's what this thread is for.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 13 2014 at 21:03 |
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Nick Dilley
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2012 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 173 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:08 | |||
Well, here goes. I am copy/pasting this from my band's website. Here's the link if you want to read about more tunes of our (as I discuss each one in detail), but I'll post the text here, so the discussion doesn't come off as shameless self-promotion or forcing people to go to our site.
This is about a song of ours called "Fresh Eyes." It's about perspective (one of those oftentimes tired topics). You can hear the song here Copied from our website:
This is one of the
most diverse tunes on our record in terms of self-contained mayhem! Are you
gonna salsa to the verse groove or mosh to the coda?! Lots of goodies to
discuss with Fresh Eyes, so let’s get
to it!!
Lyrics:
As often as the
subject of perspective is covered in music, you’d think I’d consciously try to
avoid jumping on the bandwagon. Well, I thought I could do something a bit
unique with it. That novelty comes from the specific combination of lyrics and
very intentional constructions within the music. Before getting to the
combinatory effects, though, let’s cover some lyrical ground.
Until I walk 1000 days
From my home, pointed away
I will not know my true strength
For until that day, it will be
But a tenth
The lyrics in the
intro, which is more of a theme really, simply states that one of the ways to
enrich your own worldview is through experiencing that which is outside of your
comfort zone. I make use of the word “strength” because, in my personal
experience, developing the self through this sort of experience (intentionally
or accidentally) goes a long way in terms of developing strength of character
and personal independence.
Staring at the same thing that I look at
everyday
Feeling safe in this place where I know that I
am sane
Can’t venture past my known boundaries
Fear mystery like a disease
The first verse basically
lays out the concept of what many people are like before broadening their
perspectives—that is, not only is one hesitant to go beyond their at-the-moment
boundaries because of a certain existential apprehensions, but that it is often
the perceived universality of one’s own situation that lets us feel our world
makes sense, or that we “get” how it all works.
Try just once
For once just try
As we’ll see in
later parts of the song, this is the first of several instances of playing
with, and sometimes reversing, meaning within the lyrics. Here, it’s a
difference in degree as far as one’s willingness to philosophically relocate
themselves or their attitude.
Try finding your way
To a greater understanding
See more than one side
White is not the absence of
Light that claims itself
As the purity of
Every joined, fused
Color
The chorus’
meaning is pretty straightforward, so I won’t get into it too much here. It
does, however, get more interesting in the second chorus.
Staring at the same thing that I look at
everyday
Heads becomes tails and I know not what to say
Sight beyond my last known boundary
Former mystery now a part of me
The second verse
essentially explains the initial shock and ultimate value in shifting one’s
perspective in the effort to better understand the inner, or self, and outer,
or that which exists outside your native perspective, upbringing, or worldview.
A rebirth of perception
A
rebirth of perception
Or
a perception of rebirth
In the same way
the lyrics comment on the willingness of someone to “for once just try,” these
lyrics point out a pitfall that a lot of people are victim into. More specifically,
the “rebirth of perception” is the definite goal, but without really stepping
outside your perspectival comfort zone—without giving yourself fresh eyes—one may merely feel that
they’ve experienced some level of rebirth without actually reaching that goal.
Composition:
The Theme of
Perspective:
One of my goals
with this song, since it covers the somewhat worn out—but no less valid—topic
of perspective, was to make the composition as intertwined with the lyrical
content as possible in the hope of providing something original as a whole to
the vast array of music on this subject. To that end, I tried to reflect the lyrical
theme in the song over and over again in the music. This ranged from minutia
that perhaps no one would notice without pointing it out, to more obvious
things.
One of the most
basic ways to make this specific lyrical theme manifest itself in the music is
to create variations. In the world of rock, I think good variations are all too
absent from the rhythm section anyway, so I think it adds to the overall
composition on both levels. Anyway, in the intro section and the bridge
preceding the guitar solo, we have two very different takes on the same piece
of music. Originally, the music for each section was identical except for the
added vocals, but we took it a bit further when it came time to record the
track because it seemed to not only make the whole song a bit more interesting
dynamically, but drove home the point of including a variation all the more
starkly.
The above is what
would be a typical “variation” in musical terms (and, honestly, one that is
perhaps arguably more than a simple variation because of the number of
differences between instances), and in addition to this and the lyrical
variations, there are what almost need to be called “methodological variations”
that help drive the point home even more, including symbolic use of parallel
modes, a sort of rhythmic inversion (if that is even a thing), and symbolic use
of multiple voices.
The guitar solo,
for example, shifts in parallel modes from measure to measure. In essence, it’s
a new perspective on the same Bb chord every 4 beats. I know that’s not
something that will be beat-you-in-the-face obvious to most, but I did this intentionally
in the hope that it would help with the authenticity of the song, and, hey, it
made for a cool solo!
For the coda, I
crafted a riff that seems to invert on itself every two repetitions. I wouldn’t
say it’s a perfect inversion, like a palindrome or anything, but the constant
switching between 8th note +16th note and 16th
note + 8th note rhythms, comes off a bit like a riff played
one way
and then playing its reflection, and it is meant to represent the
twisting of
perspective. If anything, it makes a great 5/4, 5/4, 6/4, 6/4 pattern
(with a lead melody maintaining a strong 4/4 vibe on top of all that!!)
into a
headbang-able rock groove.
In both the bridge
before the guitar solo and the post-solo section, we make use of what amounts
to a “collage” of vocals. This, much like basic variations, was meant to take
simple phrases and present them in a variety of stylized performances.
Falsetto, raspy low voice, plain speech, shouting—they all present a different
take on the very same utterances, and I wanted to include that not so much to
represent multiple perspectives, but to lend that sort of feel to the piece and
let the lyrics infer that representation onto those parts.
Lastly, the second
chorus vocals were meant to be the most symbolic point in the song. While the
lead vocal line remains the same, the backups vocals present an alternative
message that was hidden in the lead line from the beginning. If one notices how
the backup vocals align with the lead, specific words were taken from the lead
lyrics to present a condensed version of the message.
Instead of the
lyrics:
Try finding your way
To a greater understanding
See more than one side
White is not the absence of
Light that claims itself
As the purity of
Every joined, fused
Color
We simply have the supporting phrase: Try to see white light as every joined, fused color.
The original plan
was to simply have the backups say “Try to see white light as every color,”
which is a bit more succinct. In the end, harmonizing “joined” and “fused” did
not affect the meaning or highlighting effect, and sounded stronger from a
compositional standpoint.
Chorus
After far too long
messing with the chorus and being unhappy with it, Andy Hector stepped in and wrote an amazingly catchy and badass
melody for the chorus lead vocal. Great work, if I do say so myself!
Feel Changes
One of the things
I love about this song is the unending mutation of “feel” from section to
section, which I think comes off incredibly organically. From straightforward
in the intro, kind of latin-flavored in the verses, funky in the post-verse
riffs, decidedly stiff in the pre-choruses, heavy rock in the post-solo riffs,
to
quasi-djent for
the coda, this song really runs the gamut in terms groove, all while moving
fluidly from low to medium and high dynamics.
Fun Facts for Musicians and Audiophiles:
-Key: Bb minor
-Writing Credits:
Dilley/Hector
-Guitar solo is in
parallel modes that shift each measure — Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian,
Lydian, Locrian, and finally a bluesy lick that could technically be in one of
a couple different modes—at that point it didn’t matter, and I just wanted to
channel my inner Dimebag for the final bend.
-For the octave effect on my guitar in the coda,
I used an old BOSS GS-10 Guitar Effects System with COSM. That little tank of a
sound machine traveled forward in time from the 1990s (I’m guessing…though, it
could be early 2000’s as well), and played an awesome part in making the coda
to Fresh Eyes sound HUGE!
-For anyone who was wondering just how awesome Andy Hector is on the drums, I think
this song proves that most drum kits would tremble after a mere glance from
Maestro Hector. I am immensely proud of Andy’s drumming, both composition- and
performance-wise on this song. Everybody twirl your sticks for Andy! --- I'd be interested in hearing if you guys think this is overkill for the site. I realize not many will read it, but this is what art is about for me. :-) |
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
soundcloud.com/withinareverie withinareverie.blogspot.com facebook.com/withinareverie Twitter: @WithinaReverie |
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Nick Dilley
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2012 Location: Mordor Status: Offline Points: 173 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:18 | |||
The discussion on our site of the song "The Ivory Stepping Stone" is pretty good, I think. Very complete in terms of addressing the forces behind the lyrics and music.
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
soundcloud.com/withinareverie withinareverie.blogspot.com facebook.com/withinareverie Twitter: @WithinaReverie |
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: July 13 2014 at 22:06 | |||
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 13 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3834 |
Posted: July 16 2014 at 12:46 | |||
Here's my band's condensed EPK. Here you can see us talk to an imaginary interviewer in a really awkward fashion. I think we play quite well though so we have that at least I suppose. |
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg |
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