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Joined: December 24 2011
Location: Haderslev
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Points: 68
Posted: July 10 2014 at 21:07
Dayvenkirq wrote:
PC-72 wrote:
Launch analog sequencer, have the polysynth hold a relevant minor chord. Either that or put multitracks of some old thing of my own and mute all the leads. I avoid improvising to pieces of music I haven't at least been involved in, both out of principle and out of extreme paranoia of accidental plagiarism down the road.
Nice. But what are you thinking about while you are improvising? I've skimmed through an article about a saxophonist who has a lot of chords burned into his brain so that he knows what chord is coming next in a composition before he determines how to solo over it. What little technical things do you think about?
None! I'm usually just trying to think how I can put whatever story/image that is at hand in notes without making it so complicated I can't play it twice. Either that or trying to see what images come out of whatever I'm playing, again without making it so complicated I can't play it twice. Just musical brainstorming, in other words!
A negative number was raised to a power that is not an integer.
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 3834
Posted: July 11 2014 at 17:30
This tune is quite tough, but the changes are a dream to improvise over once you get your head around them. I'll post a video of my modest attempt at some point
Joined: May 25 2011
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Points: 10970
Posted: July 27 2014 at 17:52
^ Wow, I really don't know why my phone wouldn't fetch me the notification of your post; sorry I'm replying so late.
I find a lot of traditional, legendary jazz (and by this clumsy choice of words I mean avant-, modal, cool, hard bop, bebop - basically 'Trane and Miles' stuff) hard to follow. So much improvisation going on that it's hard to see a tune in a piece.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Points: 10970
Posted: July 27 2014 at 18:12
I'm going to say something that might be a lot of help to my fellow improvisers around here:
1) I think that it's important for a player first to figure out what style he is going to improvise in at any given time. If it's jazz, is it hard bop or traditional modal or fusion? ("Sub-genre" is the keyword here.)
2) Figure out the cliches that identify that style. Play something mannerist, imitative.
3) Pick a chord progression and get into its character/feel, even if it does sound boring, because you are going to make it more interesting.
4) If you can't play the instrument, start off with something simple. Your playing style will evolve over time. Don't get too ambitious.
5) Figure out the notes in a chord you see most effective. I know blues and jazz musicians usually recommend relying often on the 1st (root), 3rd, and 7th tones, but there are times when they just don't work for me. I want to use something like b5th, 6th, b6th. A 5th sometimes works for me because it can extend the flow of a solo.
6) Resolution is important when you have to close a solo (you land on the root note or maybe even a 5th).
7) I've noticed that nearly all solos are made of separate phrases that are later on put together, and every phrase has its own character to it, its own rhythm, timing, pace, set of effective notes - a character, basically.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 18:33
Here's a link to a clip (that was recorded about a year ago) that I think demonstrates perfectly how the life of a solo can be extended - just by adding distinctive phrases, i.e. where each phrase has a distinctive character to it (as mentioned in my previous post under no. 7). No one has ever told me that. All those pro's give you those little tools and methods that you can use to write a phrase. They will tell you what a chord is, what a scale is, what modes there are out there, what an arpeggio is, but they never told me how to just keep writing a solo, how to make it stand out, how to give it a character, how to breathe life into it.
Unfortunately, this is just an idea on how to write a solo. The challenge of improvisation seems like a much tougher beast to handle. I guess in this case I have to figure out the most effective notes for every chord and play around with them rhythmically.
Joined: June 13 2007
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 04:59
I disagree with points 6 and 7 unfortunately Dayvenkirq. Resolution, for
me, sounds a lot better on the 3rd or 7ths. But that's only if you want
a bebop sound. If you want a more modern and colourful sound, resolving
on a 9th, 11th (natural on a minor chord, sharpened on a major chord)
or a 13th sounds really hip if you're playing something like a Kenny
Wheeler tune. Also, with the separate phrases thing... It's true,
phrases have their own identity, but I think it's important for the
phrases to be a developing thing, so phrase 2 is a development or a
result of phrase 1. I might add stress to the fact that the only
difference I see between improvisation and composition is time
boundaries. Improv is on the spot, whereas composition is over however
much time you want to put into it. From this I deduce that a good
improvisation has all the qualities that a good composition has, two of
those qualities being unity and development.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 11:55
^ I'll keep some of your points in mind.
So, you would argue that in addition to unity and development, ideally every solo should have phrases working in the call-and-response fashion.
I like messing around with that idea. E.g., call (in a bar), call(in a bar), response (in a bar), ... , response, response, call, response, ... . That actually may prompt for repeating a chord for another bar. But I guess for the beginner level you would have to stick with something simpler (call, response, call, response) so as not to confuse the other players and stay on the same page with them. Fortunately, I'm the only writer and player at my home, so I can stretch the context (the backing chord sequence) a little.
As you can see, my main concern here remains to be this: how not to waste every second of my solo time.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 12:40
^ It appears that Bill is discussing the matter of perceiving the musical information in a solo from a player-as-a-listener point of view. This is covered within the framework of a piece written by somebody else. That's not my case. If I come up with a chord progression and play over it, I care about what I have to say, not what somebody else said. I'm not interested in repeating what someone else said. Bill's case seems to be how accurately you copy someone's solo. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Joined: June 13 2007
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 18:40
This is the eternal improvisation and composition debate, but I will ask you to give an example of any musical cell somewhere within Western music that isn't derivative somehow. In other words, everything anyone plays ever is copied from something, whether consciously or not. Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:12
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style? Like someone heard a collection of phrases that have a common character, grouped them, and gave them a genre name.
Joined: June 13 2007
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:19
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style?
Not at all. The five notes 2 - b3 - 7 - 2 - 1, in a minor key going from dominant to tonic (the tonic note landing on the tonic chord), can be found in Baroque, Bebop, Folk, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop, Funk, Prog Rock and Jewish Klezmer music. I can say the same about a million different cells or phrases.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:28
Usually by trying to copy something I heard and playing it wrong but liked what I came up with, so I would loop it and then play along to that with my guitar or keep the loop going and switch to bass. Nothing serious, just for kicks.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:59
The Pessimist wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style?
Not at all. The five notes 2 - b3 - 7 - 2 - 1, in a minor key going from dominant to tonic (the tonic note landing on the tonic chord), can be found in Baroque, Bebop, Folk, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop, Funk, Prog Rock and Jewish Klezmer music. I can say the same about a million different cells or phrases.
Oops ... we've almost made this a conversation based on a different question - the question of style.
So, going back to my original question (or argument) of how to compose a phrase. The way I weave a solo is I string different phrases together, each phrase based on its own chord and placed in its own bar. One bar would feature a phrase that is a fast ascending scalar run. The bar after it would rely only on the root and 5th notes with an octave slide-up (since I play an electric guitar), executed economically, slowly. Two different phrases, each one has its own character. I don't know how other guys do it, but that's the gist I got.
Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 20:05
SteveG wrote:
Usually by trying to copy something I heard and playing it wrong but liked what I came up with, so I would loop it and then play along to that with my guitar or keep the loop going and switch to bass. Nothing serious, just for kicks.
So, as I understand, you come up with a chord progression (or a bass line) derived from somebody else's work. When you solo, do you just play random notes?
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: August 06 2014 at 22:46
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style?
Not at all. The five notes 2 - b3 - 7 - 2 - 1, in a minor key going from dominant to tonic (the tonic note landing on the tonic chord), can be found in Baroque, Bebop, Folk, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop, Funk, Prog Rock and Jewish Klezmer music. I can say the same about a million different cells or phrases.
Oops ... we've almost made this a conversation based on a different question - the question of style.
So, going back to my original question (or argument) of how to compose a phrase. The way I weave a solo is I string different phrases together, each phrase based on its own chord and placed in its own bar. One bar would feature a phrase that is a fast ascending scalar run. The bar after it would rely only on the root and 5th notes with an octave slide-up (since I play an electric guitar), executed economically, slowly. Two different phrases, each one has its own character. I don't know how other guys do it, but that's the gist I got.
Very interesting. I've never caught on to chord based leads. It sounds like a burdensome approach to me. I just use scales and explore aspects of tension and resolution in a very free-form fashion. I know my scales very well, but thinking about chords is something I never do aside from throwing in an arpeggio here and there. Interestingly, I like to create rather complicated chord progressions, yet I've always been more successful soloing over more simple progressions. I ought to try incorporating some of your approach.
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 00:52
^ I believe any line is chord-based. Otherwise, where do you get your arpeggios from? Also, if you have an audio mix with a progression for the background and a solo for the foreground, can we hear it and see how you go about things? Many of my arpeggios sound boring. I don't know why. Even though Steve does make arpeggios sound complicated in execution on "... Moonlit Knight", I want to try something else, something even more challenging. I hear all those guitar players (Neil Young; Danny Whitten; Bruce Springsteen; Steely Dan-, Steven Wilson-, and Scott Walker- recruited guitar players) not relying on arpeggios and pulling some really good phrases. I might have not mentioned that I tend to use scalar runs, octave jumps, slides, reliance on principial notes (root, 3rd, and 5th), etc. I don't think about technical stuff like that, actually. For right now I don't want to let music theory replace my musical intuition, that channel of inspiration that tells me in my head what phrases would sound good against the given chords. I tend to think about how would another guitar player, a pro, do it. I'm an imitator, a listener, really. For the time being, I don't want to bother in trying to sound even 90% original, or anything close to that. I'll just imitate.
Below is a little taste of something that I've written in my Book of Phrases. Note that I have my own tab-writing style. I don't want to remember frets and strings. I want to remember what notes I'm playing. I want to know what my head is trying to tell me. I'm looking for patterns, the commonalities that my phrases share, the things that make those phrases sound so good.
(These are lines that were already played by the Steely Dan guitarists, Baxter and Dias, or one or the other. They are not mine.)
This one has "LVS" in the upper right-hand corner. Guess what it stands for.
These two sets of phrases are based on Wishbone Ash's chord changes from "Time Was", only they are a semitone down. I want to be able to get into the vibe, the mood of something different and boring and try on my own to breath life into it.
Joined: June 13 2007
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 07:23
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style?
Not at all. The five notes 2 - b3 - 7 - 2 - 1, in a minor key going from dominant to tonic (the tonic note landing on the tonic chord), can be found in Baroque, Bebop, Folk, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop, Funk, Prog Rock and Jewish Klezmer music. I can say the same about a million different cells or phrases.
Oops ... we've almost made this a conversation based on a different question - the question of style.
So, going back to my original question (or argument) of how to compose a phrase. The way I weave a solo is I string different phrases together, each phrase based on its own chord and placed in its own bar. One bar would feature a phrase that is a fast ascending scalar run. The bar after it would rely only on the root and 5th notes with an octave slide-up (since I play an electric guitar), executed economically, slowly. Two different phrases, each one has its own character. I don't know how other guys do it, but that's the gist I got.
Of course every phrase has its own character, but at the same time each phrase can be broken down and analysed. It has to be really, otherwise how could you even begin to develop on it? Development is important. It's how music grows. If one were to just play unrelated phrases in sequence, then there is no unity and it just sounds like someone vomiting the different tricks they know onto the instrument. It doesn't sound musical. If you're Sonny Rollins, then you can take two, even three phrases, and develop them alongside each other, which is a skill that completely blows my mind.
Joined: June 13 2007
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 07:26
HackettFan wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
Adapting it to your style is what makes a phrase/progression individual, not the actual architecture or content of the thing.
Don't the architecture and content of a phrase determine its style?
Not at all. The five notes 2 - b3 - 7 - 2 - 1, in a minor key going from dominant to tonic (the tonic note landing on the tonic chord), can be found in Baroque, Bebop, Folk, Heavy Metal, Hip-Hop, Funk, Prog Rock and Jewish Klezmer music. I can say the same about a million different cells or phrases.
Oops ... we've almost made this a conversation based on a different question - the question of style.
So, going back to my original question (or argument) of how to compose a phrase. The way I weave a solo is I string different phrases together, each phrase based on its own chord and placed in its own bar. One bar would feature a phrase that is a fast ascending scalar run. The bar after it would rely only on the root and 5th notes with an octave slide-up (since I play an electric guitar), executed economically, slowly. Two different phrases, each one has its own character. I don't know how other guys do it, but that's the gist I got.
Very interesting. I've never caught on to chord based leads. It sounds like a burdensome approach to me. I just use scales and explore aspects of tension and resolution in a very free-form fashion. I know my scales very well, but thinking about chords is something I never do aside from throwing in an arpeggio here and there. Interestingly, I like to create rather complicated chord progressions, yet I've always been more successful soloing over more simple progressions. I ought to try incorporating some of your approach.
Chords and scales are the same thing. Scales emerge from chords. If you were to just play the chord tones (so the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th), then there would be no tension. However, the tension comes from the 9th, 11th and the 13th, and so when you incorporate them, you've essentially got a scale. Every scale functions this way. To say that you think in scales and not chords is actually to disregard where the idea of a scale comes from. This whole concept is known as Chord-Scale Relationships.
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What kind of music do you improvise to and how?
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Dayvenkirq wrote:
