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Polymorphia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 15:51
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I've written a lot of bits before, but not a single song. I've written a few pieces before, but they were either really crappy or just needed more work.

So, here's a nearly full-fledged piece called "Disagreement". I might put more musical ideas in there. I intend to (1) add a flute solo to the 2nd instrumental verse and (2) compress the time in the chori (or choruses, whatever you want for the plural of "chorus") from 12/8 to 11/8. I might actually extend the whole thing to something bigger; it appears that there isn't much said in it.

https://soundcloud.com/andrey-gaganov/disagreement
Interesting ideas in this one. They feel very much separate, and you can make that separation the focus, but, if you want to extend it, you could try adding transitions. It also could stand to be practiced with a metronome.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

The other one is just me screwing around with a couple of ideas I had in my head for quite a while now. This is where Metallica meets Tool (at least that's the way I see it). Surely, I could make it bigger, but really it's just a process of playing around with derivative ideas, and I don't want to spend time building stuff around them.

I can't hear much of what's happening here, so I can't offer many comments on it. No worries, though. There are ways to make derivative ideas your own. Just play around with them until you find something you like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2014 at 01:57
http://soundcloud.com/n-quixote/pink-meat-moment-jam-session/s-R5Knz

Came up with this one in a jam session last month, layering some electronics on top of a guitar progression


Edited by coffeeintheface - July 09 2014 at 02:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2014 at 02:34
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I've written a lot of bits before, but not a single song. I've written a few pieces before, but they were either really crappy or just needed more work.

So, here's a nearly full-fledged piece called "Disagreement". I might put more musical ideas in there. I intend to (1) add a flute solo to the 2nd instrumental verse and (2) compress the time in the chori (or choruses, whatever you want for the plural of "chorus") from 12/8 to 11/8. I might actually extend the whole thing to something bigger; it appears that there isn't much said in it.

https://soundcloud.com/andrey-gaganov/disagreement
Interesting ideas in this one. They feel very much separate, and you can make that separation the focus, but, if you want to extend it, you could try adding transitions. It also could stand to be practiced with a metronome.
Yeah, making smooth changes has become one of my recent challenges. As for the metronome part, it's not keeping time in my head that is the problem; it's getting my fingers to play accurately and getting to the right spots on the fretboard and staying in time (doing all of that at the same time) that has to be taken care of.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

The other one is just me screwing around with a couple of ideas I had in my head for quite a while now. This is where Metallica meets Tool (at least that's the way I see it). Surely, I could make it bigger, but really it's just a process of playing around with derivative ideas, and I don't want to spend time building stuff around them.

I can't hear much of what's happening here, so I can't offer many comments on it. No worries, though. There are ways to make derivative ideas your own. Just play around with them until you find something you like.
My laptop has a crappy microphone, and I have a crappy amp (a tiny Yamaha).

All in all, I was just playing around with some ideas. Thanks for your feedback.





Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 09 2014 at 02:34
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Polymorphia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2014 at 10:54
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

I've written a lot of bits before, but not a single song. I've written a few pieces before, but they were either really crappy or just needed more work.

So, here's a nearly full-fledged piece called "Disagreement". I might put more musical ideas in there. I intend to (1) add a flute solo to the 2nd instrumental verse and (2) compress the time in the chori (or choruses, whatever you want for the plural of "chorus") from 12/8 to 11/8. I might actually extend the whole thing to something bigger; it appears that there isn't much said in it.

https://soundcloud.com/andrey-gaganov/disagreement
Interesting ideas in this one. They feel very much separate, and you can make that separation the focus, but, if you want to extend it, you could try adding transitions. It also could stand to be practiced with a metronome.
Yeah, making smooth changes has become one of my recent challenges. As for the metronome part, it's not keeping time in my head that is the problem; it's getting my fingers to play accurately and getting to the right spots on the fretboard and staying in time (doing all of that at the same time) that has to be taken care of.
It will actually help with that if that's the problem. Just playing it at a slower, more comfortable speed a few times and each time at a slightly higher speed until you reach the speed you want.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2014 at 10:56
^ Alright, then. If rubato is the only way to go in my case, then ... .

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 09 2014 at 10:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2014 at 11:06
Well, not the only way, but an effective one. The metronome is the go to practice tool for a lot of musicians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:18
Let's talk about lyrics. What is your lyric writing process? Who are your favorite lyricists and poets? What qualities do you aim for?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:23
Why, excellent question! ... I have quite a load to dump here in that department, so stay tuned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2014 at 15:34
I always look up to guys like Scott Walker and Peter Hammill because they are poets. They have that magic touch that brings meaning, lyric-writing skill, and aesthetics together. I don't want to sound straightforward and prosaic. Those are usually the qualities that you would expect from a preachy writer, so I stay away from those. However, a songwriting team from the US and UK managed to turned that around.

Check out this clip and skip to the part where Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine discuss how their songs for Rumours were written. I watched the video and thought: "F$%k! That's so simple!" They just write what's on their minds, never overthink anything, put it down on paper, and attach it to music regardless of how happy or sad it sounds (mostly happy).


So, a direct writing approach has to meet poetry. Transparency and aesthetics. I expect this to be difficult.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I may say something else. In the meantime, I'd like to know what others write about and ... pretty much the same as what Polymorphia wants to know.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 20:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2014 at 17:00
My band Dinner Guests (I am one of two writers in the band) tends to write stories, presenting a character and revealing a conflict within them. For my non-Dinner Guests stuff, I tend to go for more complex, modern poetry-influenced lyrics. I tend to go for themes, motifs, and symbols. An image may show up multiple times in a song and mean something different each time. 

I think my favorite lyricist is Jeff Tweedy from Wilco. His lyrics are dense and often surreal, but there's always a purpose for every line and they're a joy to analyze (particularly on Yankee Hotel Foxtrot). Other lyricists I like include Paul Simon, Sufjan Stevens, and, more recently, Adam Savage (Parquet Courts), Matt Berninger (The National), and Ezra Koenig (Vampire Weekend). For poets, I like John Berryman, Donald Justice (worth looking into for your approach, Andrey), and Sylvia Plath. I generally like lyrics I can chew on and explore. 

As far as process, I generally try to capture the emotion and images the song evokes and a concept usually arises from that. Then I write draft upon draft until I'm tired of working on it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2014 at 17:27
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

... Donald Justice (worth looking into for your approach, Andrey), ...

I will! Thanks for the suggestion.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

As far as process, I generally try to capture the emotion and images the song evokes and a concept usually arises from that. Then I write draft upon draft until I'm tired of working on it.
So, you write the music first, get some abstract ideas together, and create a specific scenario for the lyrics, did I get that right?

I remember Roger Waters saying that he writes the music first, and out of that his lyrics start to come. I tried to understand that approach, but every effort I've made (there were a few, though) felt forced because I knew that I've jammed the lyrics into the song. Some time I will try something different: writing evocative, sentimental* music (verse, chorus, verse, chorus), and on top of that I will do it the Bee Gees / Eno way - sing some syllables and/or words that might go well with the music. Music and lyrics should flow together nicely; the lyrics should have a rhythm that won't slip off your head, have a bit of a steady punch to them.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

... Then I write draft upon draft until I'm tired of working on it.
Of course, don't ever give up on the song if you feel you are onto something good.

* And I'm not ashamed of writing pseudo-emotional stuff at this point of learning songwriting. (Going against Thom Yorke's grain here.)


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 10 2014 at 17:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 02:12
Alright, let's try to extend this discussion.

Does anyone here tend to overthink when they write lyrics?

Do you write choruses? Or do you just write stanzas or free verses? Single lines? Do you bother with rhymes? Do all your choruses in a song have the same lyrics?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:38
You can check Within a Reverie (my group) out on FB (facebook.com/withinareverie) or bandcamp: http://withinareverie.bandcamp.com/releases

that info is probably in my signature. but i don't remember and don't want to press the back button.


Edited by Nick Dilley - July 13 2014 at 20:38
Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:41
^ Do you write for the band? Care to share some writing experience?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 20:59
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Do you write for the band? Care to share some writing experience?


I am the primary writer for my group, yes. I guess I try to take a poetic perspective on whatever topic appeals to me. If I want to write about a topic that is somewhat cliche I try and make other aspects of the song novel however I can.

I'm influenced a lot by the Romantics, Impressionism and traditional Asian aesthetics. I don't think those things concretely manifest in my work, necessarily. But I'm sure the influence is there.

Do you mind if I post a lengthy discussion of one of my pieces or would a link be more appropriate?
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soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:01
^ As long as you are discussing your influences and/or the process of writing music and/or lyrics, no one would mind if you talk about it here. That's what this thread is for.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 13 2014 at 21:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:08
Well, here goes. I am copy/pasting this from my band's website. Here's the link if you want to read about more tunes of our (as I discuss each one in detail), but I'll post the text here, so the discussion doesn't come off as shameless self-promotion or forcing people to go to our site. 

This is about a song of ours called "Fresh Eyes." It's about perspective (one of those oftentimes tired topics).

You can hear the song here
Copied from our website:


This is one of the most diverse tunes on our record in terms of self-contained mayhem! Are you gonna salsa to the verse groove or mosh to the coda?! Lots of goodies to discuss with Fresh Eyes, so let’s get to it!!

Lyrics:

As often as the subject of perspective is covered in music, you’d think I’d consciously try to avoid jumping on the bandwagon. Well, I thought I could do something a bit unique with it. That novelty comes from the specific combination of lyrics and very intentional constructions within the music. Before getting to the combinatory effects, though, let’s cover some lyrical ground.  

Until I walk 1000 days
From my home, pointed away
I will not know my true strength
For until that day, it will be
But a tenth

The lyrics in the intro, which is more of a theme really, simply states that one of the ways to enrich your own worldview is through experiencing that which is outside of your comfort zone. I make use of the word “strength” because, in my personal experience, developing the self through this sort of experience (intentionally or accidentally) goes a long way in terms of developing strength of character and personal independence.

Staring at the same thing that I look at everyday
Feeling safe in this place where I know that I am sane
Can’t venture past my known boundaries
Fear mystery like a disease

The first verse basically lays out the concept of what many people are like before broadening their perspectives—that is, not only is one hesitant to go beyond their at-the-moment boundaries because of a certain existential apprehensions, but that it is often the perceived universality of one’s own situation that lets us feel our world makes sense, or that we “get” how it all works.

Try just once
For once just try

As we’ll see in later parts of the song, this is the first of several instances of playing with, and sometimes reversing, meaning within the lyrics. Here, it’s a difference in degree as far as one’s willingness to philosophically relocate themselves or their attitude. 

Try finding your way
To a greater understanding
See more than one side
White is not the absence of
Light that claims itself
As the purity of
Every joined, fused
Color

The chorus’ meaning is pretty straightforward, so I won’t get into it too much here. It does, however, get more interesting in the second chorus.

Staring at the same thing that I look at everyday
Heads becomes tails and I know not what to say
Sight beyond my last known boundary
Former mystery now a part of me

The second verse essentially explains the initial shock and ultimate value in shifting one’s perspective in the effort to better understand the inner, or self, and outer, or that which exists outside your native perspective, upbringing, or worldview.

A rebirth of perception
            A rebirth of perception
            Or a perception of rebirth

In the same way the lyrics comment on the willingness of someone to “for once just try,” these lyrics point out a pitfall that a lot of people are victim into. More specifically, the “rebirth of perception” is the definite goal, but without really stepping outside your perspectival comfort zone—without giving yourself fresh eyes—one may merely feel that they’ve experienced some level of rebirth without actually reaching that goal.


Composition:

The Theme of Perspective:

One of my goals with this song, since it covers the somewhat worn out—but no less valid—topic of perspective, was to make the composition as intertwined with the lyrical content as possible in the hope of providing something original as a whole to the vast array of music on this subject. To that end, I tried to reflect the lyrical theme in the song over and over again in the music. This ranged from minutia that perhaps no one would notice without pointing it out, to more obvious things.

One of the most basic ways to make this specific lyrical theme manifest itself in the music is to create variations. In the world of rock, I think good variations are all too absent from the rhythm section anyway, so I think it adds to the overall composition on both levels. Anyway, in the intro section and the bridge preceding the guitar solo, we have two very different takes on the same piece of music. Originally, the music for each section was identical except for the added vocals, but we took it a bit further when it came time to record the track because it seemed to not only make the whole song a bit more interesting dynamically, but drove home the point of including a variation all the more starkly.

The above is what would be a typical “variation” in musical terms (and, honestly, one that is perhaps arguably more than a simple variation because of the number of differences between instances), and in addition to this and the lyrical variations, there are what almost need to be called “methodological variations” that help drive the point home even more, including symbolic use of parallel modes, a sort of rhythmic inversion (if that is even a thing), and symbolic use of multiple voices.

The guitar solo, for example, shifts in parallel modes from measure to measure. In essence, it’s a new perspective on the same Bb chord every 4 beats. I know that’s not something that will be beat-you-in-the-face obvious to most, but I did this intentionally in the hope that it would help with the authenticity of the song, and, hey, it made for a cool solo!

For the coda, I crafted a riff that seems to invert on itself every two repetitions. I wouldn’t say it’s a perfect inversion, like a palindrome or anything, but the constant switching between 8th note +16th note and 16th note + 8th note rhythms, comes off a bit like a riff played one way and then playing its reflection, and it is meant to represent the twisting of perspective. If anything, it makes a great 5/4, 5/4, 6/4, 6/4 pattern (with a lead melody maintaining a strong 4/4 vibe on top of all that!!) into a headbang-able rock groove.

In both the bridge before the guitar solo and the post-solo section, we make use of what amounts to a “collage” of vocals. This, much like basic variations, was meant to take simple phrases and present them in a variety of stylized performances. Falsetto, raspy low voice, plain speech, shouting—they all present a different take on the very same utterances, and I wanted to include that not so much to represent multiple perspectives, but to lend that sort of feel to the piece and let the lyrics infer that representation onto those parts.

Lastly, the second chorus vocals were meant to be the most symbolic point in the song. While the lead vocal line remains the same, the backups vocals present an alternative message that was hidden in the lead line from the beginning. If one notices how the backup vocals align with the lead, specific words were taken from the lead lyrics to present a condensed version of the message.

Instead of the lyrics:

Try finding your way
To a greater understanding
See more than one side
White is not the absence of
Light that claims itself
As the purity of
Every joined, fused
Color

We simply have the supporting phrase:

Try to see white light as every joined, fused color.

The original plan was to simply have the backups say “Try to see white light as every color,” which is a bit more succinct. In the end, harmonizing “joined” and “fused” did not affect the meaning or highlighting effect, and sounded stronger from a compositional standpoint.        

Chorus

After far too long messing with the chorus and being unhappy with it, Andy Hector stepped in and wrote an amazingly catchy and badass melody for the chorus lead vocal. Great work, if I do say so myself!

Feel Changes

One of the things I love about this song is the unending mutation of “feel” from section to section, which I think comes off incredibly organically. From straightforward in the intro, kind of latin-flavored in the verses, funky in the post-verse riffs, decidedly stiff in the pre-choruses, heavy rock in the post-solo riffs, to
quasi-djent for the coda, this song really runs the gamut in terms groove, all while moving fluidly from low to medium and high dynamics.

Fun Facts for Musicians and Audiophiles:

-Key: Bb minor

-Writing Credits: Dilley/Hector

-Guitar solo is in parallel modes that shift each measure — Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian, Lydian, Locrian, and finally a bluesy lick that could technically be in one of a couple different modes—at that point it didn’t matter, and I just wanted to channel my inner Dimebag for the final bend.

-For the octave effect on my guitar in the coda, I used an old BOSS GS-10 Guitar Effects System with COSM. That little tank of a sound machine traveled forward in time from the 1990s (I’m guessing…though, it could be early 2000’s as well), and played an awesome part in making the coda to Fresh Eyes sound HUGE!

-For anyone who was wondering just how awesome Andy Hector is on the drums, I think this song proves that most drum kits would tremble after a mere glance from Maestro Hector. I am immensely proud of Andy’s drumming, both composition- and performance-wise on this song. Everybody twirl your sticks for Andy!

---

I'd be interested in hearing if you guys think this is overkill for the site. I realize not many will read it, but this is what art is about for me. :-)


Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
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Nick Dilley View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 21:18
The discussion on our site of the song "The Ivory Stepping Stone" is pretty good, I think. Very complete in terms of addressing the forces behind the lyrics and music.
Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2014 at 22:06
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Alright, let's try to extend this discussion.

Does anyone here tend to overthink when they write lyrics?

Do you write choruses? Or do you just write stanzas or free verses? Single lines? Do you bother with rhymes? Do all your choruses in a song have the same lyrics?
As long as I write regularly (every day), overthinking is not too much of a problem. I've become okay with writing something lackluster at first. I write in stanzas, occasionally free verse when I don't already have music. I don't usually rhyme unless the music calls for it, or unless it just comes naturally. Even then I tend to like near rhymes better. My choruses are sometimes the same throughout a song and sometimes different it just depends on how much space I need to communicate a subject matter or whether or not the attitude of a character I might be writing about changes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2014 at 12:46


Here's my band's condensed EPK. Here you can see us talk to an imaginary interviewer in a really awkward fashion. I think we play quite well though so we have that at least I suppose.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
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