Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

Edited by richardh - June 12 2014 at 00:59

I am with you on this one....I first heard scenes from a memory and was blown away by the virtuosity and the drumming....then I got six degrees about solstice 04 - and was totally blown away - I loved it first spin!
I don't think they deliberately mimic anybody - but some stuff is Rush/Floyd/Genesis/Yes and I even hear the Enid in the start of six degrees......and what about Rik Mayall - there I am bemoaning his contribution to the slating of progressive rock and sort of giving him the PA evil eye and he goes and snuffs it (tragically for his family obviously) by some unknown cause - The curse of the scorned prog fan strikes again....

rogerthat wrote: Metalmarsh89 wrote: richardh wrote: Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me. Generally i just enjoy music (or not) as the case may be. DT made some good albums and put a different slant on heavy metal and perhaps even helped move prog towards something a bit heavier in style. I suspect though that 'complexity' and 'innovation' get completely confused in most people's minds. Complexity is a lot easier to nail down. I'll answer your question with a question. When Images and Words was released, was there another album or band that sounded anything like what Dream Theater did on that album? Sure you can tell where some of the influences came from, but would you consider an album unique in its own right? Absolutely, there's no doubt that there was no band like DT at that time when they made those early albums.  Images & Words was as influential for the development of prog metal as ITCOTCK for that of prog rock.

Well, personally, I thought it sounded like a number of bands and I didn't find it particularly original or different at the time it came out.  However, I was discounting the conglomeration of influences...........all the elements had been done before, but they had never been combined in quite the same way before.  So technically, I hadn't heard anything like it before........but I had heard every element of their sound and style before, just not combined in exactly that way.

But then, that is how musical innovation happens............it is extremely rare for any musician to suddenly come up with something that has never been heard before and has no trace of influences (actually, that might be impossible).  So in retrospect, I'd have to say I agree with you  and there is no denying the impact they have had on metal and prog since then.

infandous wrote: rogerthat wrote: Metalmarsh89 wrote: richardh wrote: Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me. Generally i just enjoy music (or not) as the case may be. DT made some good albums and put a different slant on heavy metal and perhaps even helped move prog towards something a bit heavier in style. I suspect though that 'complexity' and 'innovation' get completely confused in most people's minds. Complexity is a lot easier to nail down. I'll answer your question with a question. When Images and Words was released, was there another album or band that sounded anything like what Dream Theater did on that album? Sure you can tell where some of the influences came from, but would you consider an album unique in its own right? Absolutely, there's no doubt that there was no band like DT at that time when they made those early albums.  Images & Words was as influential for the development of prog metal as ITCOTCK for that of prog rock. Well, personally, I thought it sounded like a number of bands and I didn't find it particularly original or different at the time it came out.  However, I was discounting the conglomeration of influences...........all the elements had been done before, but they had never been combined in quite the same way before.  So technically, I hadn't heard anything like it before........but I had heard every element of their sound and style before, just not combined in exactly that way. But then, that is how musical innovation happens............it is extremely rare for any musician to suddenly come up with something that has never been heard before and has no trace of influences (actually, that might be impossible).  So in retrospect, I'd have to say I agree with you  and there is no denying the impact they have had on metal and prog since then.

All of the past posts were so well thought out and extremely insightful that it would be foolish of me not consider them. Perhaps because I'm probably a bit(ahem)older then you all , DT's influences seem to hit me first before the actual musical composition does. That said, I do remember the first time I heard Schizoid Man by KC and, having no clue about jazz music, I thought they had invented a completely new musical form! So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences.

Edited by SteveG - June 12 2014 at 15:28

rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote:  All of the past posts were so well thought out and extremely insightful that it would be foolish of me not consider them. Perhaps because I'm probably a bit(ahem)older then you all , DT's influences seem to hit me first before the actual musical composition does. That said, I do remember the first time I heard Schizoid Man by KC and, having no clue about jazz music, I thought they had invented a completely new musical form! So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences. For what it's worth, I do think they didn't quite disguise their influences as well as say KC.  As you said, the influences seem to be rather evident, even on the surface.  The main verse of Surrounded is so Rush-like, for instance.  What makes them unique circa 1991 is that for whatever reason, no other metal band had gone quite so far in combining prog rock elements with metal.  And as I said in my first comment on this topic, that is actually how a lot of metal's growth in the 90s has happened.  A lot of symphonic metal starting with the first Nightwish album sounds so cliched...and yet, that particular amalgam of genres hadn't been done before.  It reflects metal's relative youth as a genre at that time, its boundaries were still being expanded.  That space has obviously shrunk over the years.

If I understand you well, you are saying that Metal was very young in the 90's... between 90 and 95, when DT released Images & Words, and the Symphonic Metal bands began to emerge... however, let's consider that full blown metal started in the 80's (I guess even since 1980 itself), it means that Metal had been around for at least 10 years... perhaps even up to 15 years. In less than 10 years, prog emerged, had it's most popular years, and almost disapeared.

Dellinger wrote: rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote:  All of the past posts were so well thought out and extremely insightful that it would be foolish of me not consider them. Perhaps because I'm probably a bit(ahem)older then you all , DT's influences seem to hit me first before the actual musical composition does. That said, I do remember the first time I heard Schizoid Man by KC and, having no clue about jazz music, I thought they had invented a completely new musical form! So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences. For what it's worth, I do think they didn't quite disguise their influences as well as say KC.  As you said, the influences seem to be rather evident, even on the surface.  The main verse of Surrounded is so Rush-like, for instance.  What makes them unique circa 1991 is that for whatever reason, no other metal band had gone quite so far in combining prog rock elements with metal.  And as I said in my first comment on this topic, that is actually how a lot of metal's growth in the 90s has happened.  A lot of symphonic metal starting with the first Nightwish album sounds so cliched...and yet, that particular amalgam of genres hadn't been done before.  It reflects metal's relative youth as a genre at that time, its boundaries were still being expanded.  That space has obviously shrunk over the years. If I understand you well, you are saying that Metal was very young in the 90's... between 90 and 95, when DT released Images & Words, and the Symphonic Metal bands began to emerge... however, let's consider that full blown metal started in the 80's (I guess even since 1980 itself), it means that Metal had been around for at least 10 years... perhaps even up to 15 years. In less than 10 years, prog emerged, had it's most popular years, and almost disapeared.

I was gearing up for a good discussion with you guys last night but I got side tracked. I know that Infandous has stated that DT bridged the gap between metal and prog but in my experinece with fans of Metal core, death metal and other extreme hardcore genres, they are only happy to cross over to bands like DT or Fates Warning and display little love for older prog bands with perhaps the possibility of Rush. Even the post-rock metal of Porcupine Tree leaves them cold. As far as DT influencing metal bands or metal bands influencing new prog acts, I feel there's a back and forth that has gone on there regarding double bass drumming, down tuned 7 string guitar riffing and the like. Portnoy himself has jumped backed and forth from DT to metal bands like Avenged Sevenfold, so cross infuencing is not uncommon. IMO, the biggest thing that keeps DT from creating a distinctive sound  is, paradoxically,  the metal riffing sound that defines their genre. To get metal fans to like their progish endeavors, DT has to riff, thrash and shred at most times to project that characteristic "metal band" sound that is common with thousands of other metal acts. That similarity is every metal band's blessing and curse. To me, DT's sound is a back and forth between metal characteristics and those of prog that never meld resulting in, for me, nothing more than the playing of revolving musical genres and sytles. I don't want to close my post without saying what stellar musicians that I think DT are, but they know there audience and play to it.  When someone stated that DT "must be doing something right". I believe that "something" is exactly what I have just stated.       To get back to my original question "Are DT innovators or imitators?", after considering all of the posts, I conclude that DT are indeed innovators, however, with the caveats I noted, I can only consider them innovators in the narrowest sense of the word. A safe and fun weekend to all!




Edited by SteveG - June 14 2014 at 08:54

I have lost a lot of the appreciation I once had for DT but I have to be honest, when I first heard Images And Words soon after its release (their first album slipped under my radar) it made a big impression on me, it was like Rush on steroids with much denser prog-oriented keyboards and an easier voice timbre. Unlike possibly other listeners I did not cling so much to the first side Pull Me Under, Another Day, Surrounded, etc but I was blown away by the 2nd half of the album, Metropolis, Under A Glass Moon, Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live. I could not believe what I was hearing.

Funny...I don't see anyone posting in the "What are you lisenting to..." thread DT albums, does anyone listen to them anymore?

I am a fan, used to be bigger fan, but last two albums left me numb. And I do miss Portnoy, he added many facets to the group, good or bad...usually good IMO.

Crying over spilt milk...but they should have taken a hiatus.

Catcher10 wrote: Well at some point it seems all bands efforts move sideways when they get in a rut.....IMO right now DT are in a rut, for sure the last two albums are nothing ground breaking from an innovation view. When I think about their early albums like Scenes, SDoIT, Awake those were some pretty innovative albums and a lot of new prog/rock/metal bands acknowledge them as innovators. Imitators, not sure as most bands do imitate the bands they get inspiration from, maybe not flown blown imitation but there are bits and pcs mixed in usually. With DT you can hear Rush, Yes, Genesis, PF, Metallica, Iron Maiden......but DT sounds like DT at least to me. The key to me for DT is will they get out of this rut and create some new music to get excited about, in prog years they are not that old to learn something new or actually create a great album again. Portnoy is the only one who since the breakup has actually made some pretty good music albeit as a session drummer on some, but still, his work with Morse, Transatlantic and Winery Dogs is pretty damn good. All this IMO

I'm with you on this Jose as Portnoy is stellar with the Winery Dogs and Transatlantic, but Dream Theatre left me lukewarm after I ate up both the Six Degrees and Train Of Thought albums. Maybe Mike had an intuition that it was time for him to move on.

Edited by SteveG - July 10 2014 at 14:41

Catcher10 wrote: Funny...I don't see anyone posting in the "What are you lisenting to..." thread DT albums, does anyone listen to them anymore? I am a fan, used to be bigger fan, but last two albums left me numb. And I do miss Portnoy, he added many facets to the group, good or bad...usually good IMO. Crying over spilt milk...but they should have taken a hiatus.

I too think they should have taken that hiatus. When Portnoy mentioned back then I thought it was a good idea... even though 5 years seemed exagerated.