Exclusionsist or Inclusivist? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 14 2014 at 17:15 | |||
Well, that was pretty pointless. |
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What?
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: April 14 2014 at 17:35 | |||
LOL but I really don't need a glasses to see (hear) that unquestionable truth that 70s hits were miles above better than the hits in (your favourite?) 80s. ..just as a decore... edit: Unbroken Chain by The Dead removed because it wasn't released as a single, so Truckin' is here. Edited by Svetonio - April 14 2014 at 18:11 |
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: April 14 2014 at 18:30 | |||
That was a test just to see if we could count. Yes, was informed of the edit. If 8 turned out to be 9. Anyway, isn't a 9 album experience better than a 1 album of hodge podge of styles which would annoy and divide the reasonable and balanced prog archives views? But yes, that exploitation existed before prog. It was just applied by playing music's own game - fostering the relationship.It's the only way the execs knew how to market and sell music without a real image. The manipulation went deeper as the music went deeper. Who knows? Perhaps it was a Scottish exec who thought this up. Tales probably should have been 4 different albums rather than the condensed edited form everyone knows and loves without equivocation for 40 years. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 14 2014 at 21:12 | |||
That was pretty pointless. And misses the point by a country mile. Well done.
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What?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65289 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 03:05 | |||
As am I, and if it's not Scottish... well anyway-- good post my subniveal friend, however something I've notice about almost all those genres is that they each have hardcore fans; authenticists who feel, understandably so, that the "folk" Jethro Tull (or even Steeleye Span) play has something important missing. Same goes for Mahavishnu's "jazz", ELP's "classical", and Zep's "blues". It sounds artificial to them and I have little doubt it indeed does. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 03:16 | |||
Nope, I guess that one man's hodge podge is another's eclectic blend of a number of disparate musical styles that does not impinge on the identity or originality of its creators and conspires to be more than the sum of its parts? (off the top of my sleepy head while overdosed on flu medication) e.g I find say, the Nice playing jazz considerably more interesting and innovative than jazzers playing jazz and the idea of sitting through 9 specialist albums where execs have decided beforehand just how limited by strict stylistic conventions the musical boundaries are gonna be, would bore me rigid. Tales should have been an EP with maybe just The Revealing Science of God included (together with an advisory sticker slapped over the title warning consumers: may contain tracers of Pot Noodle |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 03:19 | |||
Thanks, I had to look that up (subniveal I mean) |
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 03:31 | |||
Well, this is the difference between roots and progressive (adjective.) Although jazz and classical are art forms based on roots music anyway. It's a new authenticity and many people hate the idea of change and progressive (adj) is all about change. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65289 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 03:56 | |||
Great observation, maybe it'll turn out to be true. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 04:39 | |||
What's with the obsession with 'pot noodles' ????
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 05:04 | |||
It's just a very lame play on words that imply illicit drug use can lead to lazy self indulgence i.e. noodling away aimlessly while stoned off yer tits etc Edited by ExittheLemming - April 15 2014 at 05:05 |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 05:16 | |||
Oh ! That sort of 'pot' noodle - silly me..........
......yes indeed, plenty of that on Topographic, and that's what makes it soooo enjoyable !! Though I couldn't see Wakeman toking on a J. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 06:01 | |||
Yep, Rick appears to have been an old school beer monster in his youth (which may have led to his feeling somewhat excluded from the recreational core activity of his band mates at around this time? - there is no more tortuous and futile an exchange of ideas than that which takes place between the intoxicated and the stoned) Edited by ExittheLemming - April 15 2014 at 06:04 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 36152 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 11:22 | |||
No, Prog ceased circa 1969.
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Metalmarsh89
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 15 2013 Location: Oregon, USA Status: Offline Points: 2673 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 12:06 | |||
If we have a proto-prog classification for the bands that preceded prog (even if they were the proggiest thing to date), doesn't that mean that the label of prog is based on the music itself rather than the evolution of the entire genre?
Anyway, I vote option 1. How can you prove Steven Wilson wouldn't be writing proggy music if Pink Floyd or King Crimson never got together to write some wacky tunes? |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65289 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 18:31 | |||
^ You can't, but you can show a musical lineage from the extant recordings made which shows influence. However, you are correct in that most progressive musicians would still be making progressive music even if Floyd or Crimson had never existed.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
Posted: April 15 2014 at 19:37 | |||
I don't think this question was phrased very well. It clearly makes the first option sound more viable. My answer is a mix of both.
Prog has "changed", in that it has explored new areas within the boundaries of the style, but the definition of progressive music is not infinitely flexible to the point of including things that sound nothing like the original progressive bands. There is clearly a broad genre called 'prog', and there is no reason to make that term meaningless by forcing it to encompass all innovative, left-of-center rock music just because the term "progressive" literally fits that. There is no need for a term to encompass all substantially innovative rock music, period. Just for an example, I think Kayo Dot is a fine inclusion due to the avant-prog element (probably a candidate for crossover), but I think adding post-rock in general was several steps too far. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 02:34 | |||
Good post certainly which I probably agree with. Yes, I could have phrased the question better but it was chosen to be deliberately provocative and indicate an either/or response was required. I wanted people to kick back against this false dichotomy and many have done so to date which is encouraging. You are correct that it's not black and white and is a bit of both i.e. Prog as broadly understood in the PA sub genres must have limits that cannot be reasonably expected to encompass every new facet and development in contemporary rock that is deemed progressive. This of course begs the question (which I implied so poorly): where do we draw these limits or do the PA members feel that doing so would be restrictive and counter productive? I'm not familiar enough with anything that could be considered post rock to comment on its suitability for inclusion on PA or otherwise. Wait up - I like Mogwai well enough but I'm not sure I can hear any Prog in there (maybe some Kraut, Industrial, Noise, Avant, a smidgin of Symph? and Ambient yes) Tortoise are also a band I like but sound like a retro futuristic supergrounp of (Fritz) Lang, (Raymond) Scott and (Harry) Partch. Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 02:47 |
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 02:55 | |||
The thing about "post-rock" is that just like "shoegaze" or "grunge" it was originally coined by music reviewers to describe several disparate music styles and associated social subcultures that all rejected the categorization so I'm kind of uncomfortable using it as a genre classification. However, certain post-rock groups like Tortoise or Trans-Am for instance have an obvious influence from Can... and if the "Kosmische Musik" scene (better known in the Anglosphere as "Krautrock") belongs here, they do as well.
Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 17 2014 at 03:48 |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: April 17 2014 at 03:12 | |||
... Parliamentary debates notwithstanding. Of course they could be both (stoned or intoxicated as well as... etc...) Sorry, could not resist that. Let's get back to defending false dichotomies. There I go again... God, I can't seem to get away from any opportunity to Sl*g off those which seek power over us. OK, just to add fuel to the fire how does one tell that say prog rock however well, quasi or ill defined, has progressed? From what to what? Making it as good as the Prokofiev playing hear at the moment? IOW accepting that in the late 70s there was a collapse in prog rock, was there a progression consequently, how are these things identified? To me most symphonic rock (not metal) became a style of playing (inclusivistically oriented) rather than a sense of hearing something new (exclusionistically oriented). Should this be tried? Is it commercially viable? Should an audience be challenged? Btw I am not that certain about the i and e word variations I have used above. As a non-expert at everything I'll stand be corrected. |
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