Exclusionsist or Inclusivist?

Dean wrote:   So, I'm all for inclusiveness but I think we can go too far in the rush to add anything and everything that sounds just a tad left of centre.

Prog ended in 1978. (Voice from the past) lol 

twosteves wrote: I suppose the first choice but I'd be curious to know how many modern prog bands really label or think of themselves as "prog ".

Dean wrote: Option 1 however I do believe that we have to question very carefully what is included in this inclusivity (I've had to include that word into Chrome's spell checker, oh the iron knee) and not lose complete sight of where it came from and what it is (this "Prog" thing).  Contrary to popular belief, Prog is not evolving, it is our acceptance of what can be considered to be Prog that is changing with time, which is why there is this dichotomy between "Classic Prog" of the 1970s and everything that came after.  If there was a nice unbroken linear evolution in Progressive Rock over the past 40 years then we would not be having this poll, or the hours of debate over the past 10 years of this site about whether band "Y" or band "Z" are "prog enough" to be included, or whether Extreme Metal, Post Rock and Math Rock should be here, or whether Avant, Zeuhl, Canterbury and Krautrock are Prog subgenres, or whether Electronic Prog has any validity at all... or condescending ellipsis-riddled posts on the adjectival use of progressive in the noun phrase Progressive Rock. So, I'm all for inclusiveness but I think we can go too far in the rush to add anything and everything that sounds just a tad left of centre.

Edited by Svetonio - April 12 2014 at 13:20

In the 70s, nearly every great rock band with any interest in musicianship had its prog moments, such as The Who and Led Zeppelin, and even folks like Alice Cooper, Bowie, Elton John, Roxy Music and Billy Joel (for Christ's sake!). Other bands, such as Tull, Floyd and Genesis bounced in and out, chameleon-like. I am not sure the interest is on the same level currently. Certainly, great swathes of the listening public do not listen to what we old farts would consider rock music with the same interest as in that bygone era. Rock music is really not the Billboard juggernaut it once was.

A bit of a loaded poll really.

Obviously the second choice is stupid. But that doesn't mean we should add every piece of music or band that is slightly odd or quirky, even to go so far as to include non rock acts just because they may be progressive. For the site, I believe we should be more exclusionist, but that doesn't mean I believe prog died in '79.

Man With Hat wrote: A bit of a loaded poll really. Obviously the second choice is stupid. But that doesn't mean we should add every piece of music or band that is slightly odd or quirky, even to go so far as to include non rock acts just because they may be progressive. For the site, I believe we should be more exclusionist, but that doesn't mean I believe prog died in '79.

Interesting perception of how the poll is deemed to be 'loaded' given that its creator voted for option 2 presumably on the basis of either his sincere belief or sincere stupidity. I notice however that you mix the use of Prog and progressive in your post which might go some way towards explaining this confusion but certainly helps identify one of the misconceptions the poll was created in the first place to highlight. I mean it would be very difficult to make an argument that Krautrock, RPI, Canterbury, Zeuhl or Neo prog (OK this flourished for a while in the 80's) etc were actually still evolving to qualify as contemporary in 2014? You say we should be more exclusionist but don't state how we can bring this about i.e. do we continue to use sub genre definitions that are a measure of a historical bygone Prog or should we reevaluate the sub genre definitions to assimilate contemporary developments in progressive rock/ progressive music?. Do people think the existing definitions are wide enough to accommodate modern trends etc That's the sort of debate I wanted to stimulate.


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 12 2014 at 21:17

Although I voted for option 1, I think the changes in prog since the 70s are more in terms of sound or maybe the domination of guitar rather than keyboard.  The 70s already covered a very wide gamut and even if that alone formed the basis of deciding what bands today could be called prog, it would still be a very inclusive term because it would include symph, avant prog, prog metal (basis the inclusion of Rush), jazz rock, etc.  While I am from the younger brigade, I am sympathetic to what it is that those who think prog died in 1979 are grappling with.  Prog as a concentrated scene of music seems to have collapsed by the end of the 70s.   Today it's more about new bands with members who grew up listening to prog wanting to make some prog of their own and these bands are scattered across the globe catering to smaller fanbases.

rogerthat wrote: Although I voted for option 1, I think the changes in prog since the 70s are more in terms of sound or maybe the domination of guitar rather than keyboard. The 70s already covered a very wide gamut and even if that alone formed the basis of deciding what bands today could be called prog, it would still be a very inclusive term because it would include symph, avant prog, prog metal (basis the inclusion of Rush), jazz rock, etc. While I am from the younger brigade, I am sympathetic to what it is that those who think prog died in 1979 are grappling with. Prog as a concentrated scene of music seems to have collapsed by the end of the 70s.   Today it's more about new bands with members who grew up listening to prog wanting to make some prog of their own and these bands are scattered across the globe catering to smaller fanbases.

Progressive rock does not cease to exist in 1979. All that happened then was that the greatest bands of British progressive rock movement (scene) lost their compass, shamelessly released a number of too commercial albums, although they still to be progressive rock in some way. However, that was not the case in the rest of the world; e.g. Zappa at the end of seventies and in the eighties was released the masterpieces:

1979 May      Orchestral Favorities       Sep      Joe's Garage Act I Nov      Joe's Garage Acts II & II            1981      May      Tinsel Town Rebellion            Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                  Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar Some More              Return of the Son of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                   Sep      You Are What You Is             1982      May      Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch             1983      Mar      The Man from Utopia              Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. I        1984      Aug      Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger       Oct      Them or Us       Nov      Thing-Fish               1986   Jazz from Hell       1987      Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. II                   Broadway the Hard Way

Once again, the history of progressive rock can not and should not be viewed only from the perspective of the British progressive rock movement (scene).

Edited by Svetonio - April 12 2014 at 21:08

ExittheLemming wrote: Svetonio wrote: Once again, the history of progressive rock can not and should not be viewed only from the perspective of the British progressive rock movement (scene). Has anyone made that argument or even implied same throughout the entire thread so far?

Edited by Svetonio - April 12 2014 at 21:39