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Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
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Points: 6467
Posted: April 08 2014 at 13:58
Progosopher wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire?
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog.
I was being sarcastic.
Sarcasm originated in Britain. It was discovered by either Jonathan Swift or Sir Isaac Newton, I believe. It had something to do with the fog. Or perhaps it was disdain for the French. Anyway, if you combine the words "fog" and "French", you get "frog". And there you have it.
If you combine two of the common letters shared by the names Jonathan Swift and Sir Isaac Newton, "t" and "I," with the word "Brit" you get "Twit." Sorry.
No, that's wrong. You need the "w." Twit.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: April 09 2014 at 08:50
Stool Man wrote:
Meanwhile, back in the conversation about sarcasm-structure....
When it comes to sarcasm structure you can't beat Argument, Banter, Banter, Argument (aka ABBA) though on prog forums that tends to be extended to Argument, Banter, Angry, Cry, Admin, Banned (ABACAB)
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34055
Posted: April 09 2014 at 08:54
Dean wrote:
Stool Man wrote:
Meanwhile, back in the conversation about sarcasm-structure....
When it comes to sarcasm structure you can't beat Argument, Banter, Banter, Argument (aka ABBA) though on prog forums that tends to be extended to Argument, Banter, Angry, Cry, Admin, Banned (ABACAB)
in terms of U2 we can alwasy Eeat Dounuts Giant Emus (the EDGE)
^ at the risk of coming across like some sort of post modern apologist welfare scrounging vermin wife beating hard drinking scum, could someone make a cogent argument that maybe the sovereignty of the author is no longer sacrosanct re structure in 2014?
Progressive epics often follow unconventional structures, but is there a common formula? It is hard to pinpoint exactly what makes a prog epic coherent.
Thoughts?
Some of the structure in Prog revolves around the "common formulas" that exist and are important to harmony/melody and are a great part of the science in music. It's difficult to avoid what makes perfect sense. Many series of notes played in a Prog epic are backed with common formulas derived from the Classical period. That makes perfect sense because they are adapting and emulating Classical composers. You can't really avoid formulas that were created hundreds of years before your birth. You can and it is possible to create original music from it and possibly create your own formulas to influence others...like Miles Davis. Even Avant-Garde has a formula. I don't put faith in it's "free-form" definition to a hundred percent degree. Formulas are used in Avant-Garde and are based on the knowledge and expansion of the Tri-Tone .."Devil's Interval". It is commonly played on every instrument and additionally these instruments are playing written harmony. The string quartets of the 20th century Avant-Garde composers reveal most formulas that were later used by King Crimson, Univers Zero, and Art Zoyd.
Is there a common prog epic structural formula? What do you think of prog song structures? What is your favourite prog song structure?
It's common because of the science behind it. What was created hundreds of years ago and then in the 70's adapted to Rock music. As a musician...you can't avoid the formulas. The foundation. You can take music a step further if you are a genius. If you are not a genius..then you can simply please everyone by adding something to music and it will be appreciated.
It's (maybe) interesting that the OP frames the statement using the terminology 'song' i.e. one of the most ancient musical forms we have, albeit an enduring and resilient one, regardless of prevailing aesthetic fashion etc At the risk of coming across as a bit of a furry smart arse, isn't it a given that conventional song structure has been documented and studied at length to the extent that genuine innovation has maybe been exhausted? For me Prog song structure obeys the same general harmonic and structural conventions as that of Pop, Metal, Jazz, Blues, Reggae etc but the demarcation being that what sets Prog apart is it's ability to segue disparate song fragments together to form a sort of pseudo suite of sorts. I've always believed that the linking of hirtheto divorced musical statements was one of the the defining preserves of Progressive Rock. Prog is the marriage guidance counselor for estranged musical parties?. We clearly cannot reduce all Prog to an ingenuous and skillful arrangement of existing musical forms, as that would do much of the music a grave disservice.So, can anyone provide examples where Prog (or any popular music) has dispensed with conventional song form and forged a new musical construct of their own design?
When some musicians create ..they are mindful of a group of notes sounding too obvious to the listener...where upon the listener..may define that the notes derive from an idea of Bella Bartok or whoever..and at the time of this encounter existing for the musician and the nightmare of their music , changes must be made before it is recorded and released. This issue can be cured by jamming and recording. Just as Genesis did and as a result picking out bits and pieces to form different songs. It becomes tiring and you may want to explore other avenues, but surely beats having to compare yourself to another composer during your sessions. Another good method of composing something that might result in originality..is to surround yourself with nature. It's the immediate seperation from yourself and humans and God knows what you might play/create. Many fantastic innovative Progressive Rock compositions from the late 60's and early 70's were composed in that way.
We are discussing new musical structure as to be something very original or even innovative. In truth , it is a style that is being created that will always somehow derive from what has already been written in any century and the cure for that is the following: There must be something very unique in the vocal department as with Supertramp, their vocal style and phrasing was new to everyone's ears in the 70's and in point that may have covered any emulation by hiding in plain sight...but musically if it did exist, it laid underneath the texture and discreet balance of the composition. The idea is to create a new style within, perhaps..a style that has already existed and so you are taking the style steps further.
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
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Points: 4287
Posted: April 11 2014 at 05:49
I think 99.9% of music, is just what the people making it feels like doing at that precise moment in time, all the bullsh*t is in the mind of the listener.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17748
Posted: April 11 2014 at 09:47
Progosopher wrote:
...
I am finding some difficulty with this discussion. As commonly happens, we spend as much time, if not more, on side issues rather than on the original topic. As usual, a clear set of definitions would help us out here. What is meant by structure? Is it a matter of composition or of something else? Something more? What do we mean by composition? Questions such as these are issues of discussion themselves, so unless we get that clarity from the OP we will inevitably meander through the discussion. And even then, we would question the definitions. This is an open forum, though, anything goes. Never a dull moment on the Forum!
The bigger problem is not the discussion, but some folks attitude, when they are more interested in insulting people, than they are in adding to the discussion with ideas.
It's a good discussion, were it not for the question meaning really well and only wanting to know about music from Eric Clapton to Dream Theater, or just 30 or 40 years. On a wider scale, the whole thing changes and hides a bit more as just another bit and piece in teh histroy of music! Nothing bigger or better than anything else.
My only concern is that it makes it look like people can only think of music, IF IT HAS STRUCTURE, and the late 60's and early 70's had a massive movement of "anti-film", "anti-art" and "anti-music" and many other terms for it. But we refuse to give those folks any credit, for their work. For all we know and they know, these artists were a bunch of bums and idiots, and the connection to music, pop, jazz, and any other is not exactly invisible!
Edited by moshkito - April 11 2014 at 09:55
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17748
Posted: April 11 2014 at 10:03
The Dark Elf wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Are there some unknown, obscure prog albums that beat the sales of Thriller by a multiple of 10 or something like that that UK should so concern itself with appropriating prog as part of the British empire?
I wasn't aware that a) we were "appropriating" prog as part of the Brititititish Umpire and b) that Thriller was Prog.
I was being sarcastic.
Sarcasm originated in Britain. It was discovered by either Jonathan Swift or Sir Isaac Newton, I believe. It had something to do with the fog. Or perhaps it was disdain for the French. Anyway, if you combine the words "fog" and "French", you get "frog". And there you have it.
I think we can go back to Lysistrata. ohhh wait ... it's not Brittish!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Progosopher wrote:
Sorry.
.
