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Interesting thread certainly. Just wanted to get some views about how the Cure and the Banshees were both assimilated into the Goth camp circa the mid 80's. I've always rather grown to resent two of my favourite bands being routinely considered stalwarts of the Hippies with hair-spray Goth Rock scene. Siouxsie's career could be viewed as running in parallel with that of the original Punk from 1976 but the Banshees were one of the last participants of the 100 Club Punk Festival to be signed up for a record deal. Similarly, the Cure's debut appeared 12 months after The Scream in 1979. For me the Cure were an atmospheric/ minimalist rock band up to say Disintegration in 1989(where yes, the sound textures and cavernous ambience of that album clearly owe a debt to goth aesthetics) while the Banshees only really betrayed the germ of Goth circa Tinderbox 1986. Although the embrace of Goth would not have been spurned by either, as it certainly helped prolong their respective careers but was it a natural development? I've never yet been convinced although it hasn't stopped me enjoying their later work.. There are many commentators to who consider Seventeen Seconds, Ju Ju,Pornography, A Kiss in the Dreamhouse and Faith (ok I'll let than one past) as being redolent of goth sensibilities. I saw the Cure heaps of time live between 1981 and 1983 and even their look/appearance/fashion didn't strike me as being Gothic at all. Cosmetically moribund perhaps but how is that Goth?
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 15:46
ExittheLemming wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Dero's very specific definition of the psychedelic ethos does actually include those David Bowie albums that Brian Eno produced, and the Velvet Underground too but not The Doors for some reason. I think it had something to do with psychedelia being expansion of the mind, and not just The Doors but also most gothic rock being too inwards-looking in its thematic orientation to qualify. I guess I should stress that definition is Dero's and not mine, I just wanted to bring it up because The Doors' obvious influence on that scene is one I think goes unnoticed much of the time.
On the subject of deathrock, it's not a style I know very much about to be honest and from those artists so classified I get the impression it's more a visual aesthetic than a sound. The Birthday Party are just frequently categorized as both that and goth rock, though the band themselves denied either classification.
Now that we're at it, is it just me or does the influence of Hawkwind (specifically the late-'70s LPs with Bob Calvert singing) on the post-punk and gothic rock milieu frequently go neglected? Andrew Eldritch, Siouxsie Sioux and Robert Smith are all confirmed Hawkfans - not to mention on the deathrock side of things the first Christian Death LP features quite a few instances of Rozz Williams obviously aping Calvert's vocal style.
Robert Smith likes Hawkwind? it's official, the Cure are depressing....
Dero's very specific definition of the psychedelic ethos does actually include those David Bowie albums that Brian Eno produced, and the Velvet Underground too but not The Doors for some reason. I think it had something to do with psychedelia being expansion of the mind, and not just The Doors but also most gothic rock being too inwards-looking in its thematic orientation to qualify. I guess I should stress that definition is Dero's and not mine, I just wanted to bring it up because The Doors' obvious influence on that scene is one I think goes unnoticed much of the time.
On the subject of deathrock, it's not a style I know very much about to be honest and from those artists so classified I get the impression it's more a visual aesthetic than a sound. The Birthday Party are just frequently categorized as both that and goth rock, though the band themselves denied either classification.
Now that we're at it, is it just me or does the influence of Hawkwind (specifically the late-'70s LPs with Bob Calvert singing) on the post-punk and gothic rock milieu frequently go neglected? Andrew Eldritch, Siouxsie Sioux and Robert Smith are all confirmed Hawkfans - not to mention on the deathrock side of things the first Christian Death LP features quite a few instances of Rozz Williams obviously aping Calvert's vocal style.
Robert Smith likes Hawkwind? it's official, the Cure are depressing....
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 14:38
Dero's very specific definition of the psychedelic ethos does actually include those David Bowie albums that Brian Eno produced, and the Velvet Underground too but not The Doors for some reason. I think it had something to do with psychedelia being expansion of the mind, and not just The Doors but also most gothic rock being too inwards-looking in its thematic orientation to qualify. I guess I should stress that definition is Dero's and not mine, I just wanted to bring it up because The Doors' obvious influence on that scene is one I think goes unnoticed much of the time.
On the subject of deathrock, it's not a style I know very much about to be honest and from those artists so classified I get the impression it's more a visual aesthetic than a sound. The Birthday Party are just frequently categorized as both that and goth rock, though the band themselves denied either classification.
Now that we're at it, is it just me or does the influence of Hawkwind (specifically the late-'70s LPs with Bob Calvert singing) on the post-punk and gothic rock milieu frequently go neglected? Andrew Eldritch, Siouxsie Sioux and Robert Smith are all confirmed Hawkfans - not to mention on the deathrock side of things the first Christian Death LP features quite a few instances of Rozz Williams obviously aping Calvert's vocal style.
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 13:55
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Dean wrote:
There was a slight resurgence in psychedelic rock in the 80s (neo-psychedelic). You cannot single-out The Doors or Gothic Rock as being unique in that respect even if you add The Banshees cover of Lost Little Girl because you've got dozens of post-punk bands (not just gothic-ish bands) also covering other 60s Psych bands at that time. The Doors were indeed influential - just listening to Dave Greenfield of the Stranglers will tell you that much - but so where the Velvets, the Beatles, Syd Barrett, Nick Drake and Tim Buckley etc.
Not to mention The Feelies, The Soft Boys and The Teardrop Explodes. It's also at the same time that former 13th Floor Elevators frontman Roky Erickson's solo career really took off and it seems to have been overwhelmingly punks who embraced him. If I remember Derogatis' book right, it's more that he singles out The Doors as disproportionally influential on the goth scene with their introverted lyrics and depressive atmosphere. (which distinguished them from other psychedelic bands of their time and place)
Which conveniently ignores The Velvet Underground (and Bowie). Derogatoryitis wasn't there.
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Personally I think it came independently and was a natural evolution from New Romantics - as they centred around the Blitz club, the "goths" centred around the Batcave (there was a nightclub in Leicester called Etches that was a darker form of The Blitz that reflected the beginning of that transition from New Romantic to Gothic) - if you consider that New Romantics harked back to the Romantic era of early 19th century England then the related Gothic revival of that era is mirrored in the Gothic subculture of the 20th century.
Hadn't thought of that angle but it's very interesting. Must also be relevant that both the Gothic architecture of the middle ages and the Gothic literature of the early 19th century were originally called so as perjoratives under the premise that they represented a regression away from high civilization. (the original Goths being the Germanic barbarians who overran the Roman Empire during its dissolution)
This notion that the Visigoths and Ostragoths were uncultured and uncivilised northern barbarians that "overran" the already falling Roman Empire is a later re-writing of history by the Italian Roman Catholics during the Italian Renaissance (of Classicism). Barbarian originally meant "foreigner" (and earlier simply "not Greek") and they didn't overrun the Romans, they did the unthinkable - they defeated the mighty and invincible Roman Legions in battle. All derogatory meanings of goth, barbarian and vandal stem from the 15th & 16th centuries and not the time a 1000 years earlier when those Northern "foreigners" existed. That (true) gothic art and architecture exists is evidence enough that the Visigoths and Ostragoths were far from uncivilised. The even later (18th century) view was a further romantic ideal of classicism (ie neoclassicism), for which anything and everything that didn't follow those clean symmetrical lines was called "gothic", even those that harked back to rococo or baroque styling.
But all that is irrelevant to the 20th century gothic subculture and its origins, they simply borrowed the imagery from the regency and victorian eras, or more specifically - gothic horror novels. They certainly we're not rebelling against any notions of "high civilisation" (whatever that is).
Toaster Mantis wrote:
The deathrock scene is barely related and in the early days was as unrelated as you can possibly get - it was camp rockabily and surf rock by comparison, owing more to Sha-na-na and the B52s than the Doors or even Bowie. The writers of music history like to suggest that by 1983 American deathrock and British Goth rock scenes were merging and cross-fertilising, but if you listen to the music you can see that is a nonsense - the flow of musical influence was completely in one direction - to the west, the Brits didn't even take much from the fashion either - the gothic-style was already there. There were few (if any) British deathrock bands.
Have to disagree, aren't the British group Alien Sex Fiend generally considered deathrock? One of The Gun Club's bassists, Patricia Morrison, ended up playing in TSoM and then The Damned after she moved to the UK.
Sorry, but you wrote that like you read it somewhere and haven't heard Alien Sex Fiend. Even if (and that's a sodding great huge "if") Alien Sex Fiend took any influence from the American deathrock scene then that is more than adequately covered by my "few (if any)" comment.
I'm not sure I get where you are coming from with reference to "The Princess of Goth" - sure she is an American, but musically what did she bring to either The Sisters (gah that TSoM abbreviation is annoying, I can't believe I used that) or The Damned? Certainly nothing from the American deathrock scene. If anything (and I've got a copy of her solo album Reflect on This) she is the epitome of the east-to-west flow of musical influence.
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I also remember reading that Nick Cave's first band The Birthday Party despite being technically not part of either (what with them being Australian) was an immediate influence on both the UK gothic rock and US deathrock scenes while being around at the same time.
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 11:59
Dean wrote:
There was a slight resurgence in psychedelic rock in the 80s (neo-psychedelic). You cannot single-out The Doors or Gothic Rock as being unique in that respect even if you add The Banshees cover of Lost Little Girl because you've got dozens of post-punk bands (not just gothic-ish bands) also covering other 60s Psych bands at that time. The Doors were indeed influential - just listening to Dave Greenfield of the Stranglers will tell you that much - but so where the Velvets, the Beatles, Syd Barrett, Nick Drake and Tim Buckley etc.
Not to mention The Feelies, The Soft Boys and The Teardrop Explodes. It's also at the same time that former 13th Floor Elevators frontman Roky Erickson's solo career really took off and it seems to have been overwhelmingly punks who embraced him. If I remember Derogatis' book right, it's more that he singles out The Doors as disproportionally influential on the goth scene with their introverted lyrics and depressive atmosphere. (which distinguished them from other psychedelic bands of their time and place)
Personally I think it came independently and was a natural evolution from New Romantics - as they centred around the Blitz club, the "goths" centred around the Batcave (there was a nightclub in Leicester called Etches that was a darker form of The Blitz that reflected the beginning of that transition from New Romantic to Gothic) - if you consider that New Romantics harked back to the Romantic era of early 19th century England then the related Gothic revival of that era is mirrored in the Gothic subculture of the 20th century.
Hadn't thought of that angle but it's very interesting. Must also be relevant that both the Gothic architecture of the middle ages and the Gothic literature of the early 19th century were originally called so as perjoratives under the premise that they represented a regression away from high civilization. (the original Goths being the Germanic barbarians who overran the Roman Empire during its dissolution)
The deathrock scene is barely related and in the early days was as unrelated as you can possibly get - it was camp rockabily and surf rock by comparison, owing more to Sha-na-na and the B52s than the Doors or even Bowie. The writers of music history like to suggest that by 1983 American deathrock and British Goth rock scenes were merging and cross-fertilising, but if you listen to the music you can see that is a nonsense - the flow of musical influence was completely in one direction - to the west, the Brits didn't even take much from the fashion either - the gothic-style was already there. There were few (if any) British deathrock bands.
Have to disagree, aren't the British group Alien Sex Fiend generally considered deathrock? One of The Gun Club's bassists, Patricia Morrison, ended up playing in TSoM and then The Damned after she moved to the UK.
I also remember reading that Nick Cave's first band The Birthday Party despite being technically not part of either (what with them being Australian) was an immediate influence on both the UK gothic rock and US deathrock scenes while being around at the same time.
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 04:29
Ziggy was a good cover for me. I chose to post it to show how much the bands of the time were influenced by Bowie although I think Bauhaus said they did it partly as a joke as they were getting so much critisism for being just an clone. So they did. Also because I know it will annoy Kati in the same way as they annoyed Music Journalists of the time.
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 04:08
I picked the Furs video at random from YouBoob, trying hard to avoid the ubiquitous Pretty In Pink of course.
BowerHouse's version of Ziggy was a bit too xeroxed for my tastes - I preferred their covers of Third Uncle and Telegram Sam, (Waiting For the Man less so, but then Bowie didn't fair much better on that song either)
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 03:49
It might also be the production on some of your videos that gives the AhHa! impression. Oh and the bloody awful video of the Furs in the rain. Anyway, Exhibit X to really annoy Kati (for obvious reasons)
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 02:55
Kati wrote:
Thanks Dean I listened to all of them and this is obviously only my opinion and I am no expert whatsoever thus am only speaking as a matter of taste and what I perceive the music feels to me and I honestly don't know if it is much improvement compared to punk, exhibit A to exhibit E sounds very 80's pop rock the likes of Aha, Pet Shop Boys etc. and those to me sounded (as personal taste) a tad better to be honest. This is exactly the type of music that I don't enjoy much. Exhibit F sounded different however it annoyed me because I pictured that Bowie could do that and much better. I am sorry really, maybe I am not in the best open minded happy welcoming mood to listen to them today. Hugs to you
Well, post-punk is 80s rock so that's hardly surprising, though likening them to A-Ha and the Pet Shop Bouys is like comparing Yes to Sailor because instrumentally they really are that far removed from "80s pop". All of them have a Mr Bowie influence to some extent because he was very influential on all 80s music but Japan's Mr Sylvian and his baritone vocals are more often compared to Mr Ferry, though my ears hear a very distinctive and unique style and a timbre like no other, just has I do with Mr Fish. Perhaps your ears were confused by the pretty boy image on the video. For actual Mr Bowie connections, Mr Sylvian comes from the same small town in Kent that also gave us Mr Frampton and he provided the vocals to Mr Sakamoto's soundtrack for Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence after Mr Bowie declined involvement in the soundtrack so he could concentrate on the acting, [Mr Sakamoto managed to do both of course, though neither of them could hold a candle to the films real stars Mr Conti and Mr Kitano and since I've wandered off on this little diverting tangent - Mr Van der Post's novel that the film was based upon was given the Prog treatment in instrumental concept album form by The Enid in 1988 and released under the novel's actual title of The Seed and The Sower]. Another connection is Mr Bowie's one-time collaborator Mr Fripp invited him to join King Crimson and while Mr Sylvian declined the offer, they did work together on the rather excellent The First Day album and their even better live recording, Damage. Another Prog connection with Exhibit "F" is sitting to Mr Sylvian's right on the keyboards is Progupine Tree's Mr Barbieri and on his left somewhat uncharacteristically playing another keyboard is the greatest bass guitarist of his generation, the very sadly missed Mr Karn.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 22:07
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
Dean you are very naughty because you just confused me more now, the topic was "When Punk was Dead". I am a nincompoop thus cannot see the any clue between punk and more punk whatsoever anyway hugs to you, Dean
None of these bands are Punk bands. Only a couple of them were even associated with Punk, this is what came after punk (ie when punk was dead).
exhibit "A"
exhibit "B"
exhibit "C"
exhibit "D"
exhibit "E"
exhibit "F"
Thanks Dean I listened to all of them and this is obviously only my opinion and I am no expert whatsoever thus am only speaking as a matter of taste and what I perceive the music feels to me and I honestly don't know if it is much improvement compared to punk, exhibit A to exhibit E sounds very 80's pop rock the likes of Aha, Pet Shop Boys etc. and those to me sounded (as personal taste) a tad better to be honest. This is exactly the type of music that I don't enjoy much. Exhibit F sounded different however it annoyed me because I pictured that Bowie could do that and much better. I am sorry really, maybe I am not in the best open minded happy welcoming mood to listen to them today. Hugs to you
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:59
Kati wrote:
PUNK is the Kryptonite of PROG SERIOUSLY
Seriously, it isn't. Nor did it kill Prog. It's just another genre of music. I find Punk (and Oi! and Ska-Punk and Rockabilly and Hardcore and Grunge and Skater) as boring as hell, but none of the band in the poll are punk bands.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:51
There are a bunch of great bands with punky elements, Cardiacs and Uz Jsme Doma to name two of my favorites. Look at the bands in the poll to see what post punk is. I vote Joy Division.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:48
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
Dean you are very naughty because you just confused me more now, the topic was "When Punk was Dead". I am a nincompoop thus cannot see the any clue between punk and more punk whatsoever anyway hugs to you, Dean
None of these bands are Punk bands. Only a couple of them were even associated with Punk, this is what came after punk (ie when punk was dead).
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:45
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
What do you consider post Punk? Grunge? Anything related with the name punk does not sound interesting nor appealing to me, unless anyone can prove me wrong but to date not found it.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:25
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
Dean you are very naughty because you just confused me more now, the topic was "When Punk was Dead". I am a nincompoop thus cannot see the any clue between punk and more punk whatsoever anyway hugs to you, Dean
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When Punk was Dead
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ExittheLemming wrote:
anyway hugs to you, Dean 
SERIOUSLY 
