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Joined: April 12 2008
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 03:19
Not sure I'd have voted for KJ if they were on the list, but they'd replace TBP as my second place after TSoM. They're the band that happened to singlehandedly get me to not just really appreciate punk but also industrial/noise music on its own terms. For the record my favourite album of theirs would be What's This For?.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 05:41
aapatsos wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, many of these had a goth character (not sure this is the right way to put it).
Certainly I recall Sisters, Cure and Japan, less so Bauhaus. There were a few Sister tracks playing on a constant basis in the rock clubs where I used to hang out but metal got the best of me so I have to say I have no albums of the above bands in my possession.
Any of them you would definitely recommend?
Post-punk is an umbrella term that encompasses a number of different music subgenres and Gothic Rock is just one of them. The Cure, Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees were not Gothic Rock but were certainly influential in its formation and were readily adopted by the Gothic subculture. Gothic Rock also includes a sizeable influence from Glam Rock as well as the darker aspects of late 60s Psychedelic Rock, developing as it did from the 80s synth-pop New Romantic movement (and it still retained some of the cheesy kitsch of that in both musical style and fashion sense).
I'm always reticent about recommending albums because it depends upon what you are looking for, all these bands changed over time as they became more successful (Bauhaus perhapsless so). I'd not actually group these bands together even though all of them are held in special regard by the Gothic subculture, however, if you're looking for the darker side of post-punk then certainly the earlier albums The Banshees, The Cure and Bauhaus encapsulate that proto-gothic ethos.
The first two Banshees albums are what I would call true post-punk and as I commented earlier, John McKay's guitar playing pretty much defined post-punk playing (relentless arpeggio chord picking over an almost drone-like power chord rhythm) - this can also be viewed as the proto-gothic style too if you listen to Paul Wright and Peter Yates with Fields of the Nephilim and compare them to the previously mentioned Switch from The Banshees' The Scream album. The Banshees fourth album JuJu is regarded as their only gothic album, and some say it is the album that more or less kicked-off the genre in the public consciousness, but to be honest I could listen to their entire discography in constant rotation from now until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil and I'd die a happy man.
The Cure are all over the place to be frank. Faith and Pornography are the epitome of that darker gothic ethos, that they returned to later on Disintegration and more recently (2000) Bloodflowers.
Bauhaus was (in retrospect) incredibly short-lived, releasing four albums in four years, my personal favourite is The Sky's Gone out with the Press the Eject And Give Me The Tape bonus live album, but I wouldn't be able to fit a Rizla between any of them.
Japan is the odd one out here as their musical style isn't related to any of the others and are more glam/krautrock/art rock in their early years and then developed into a more electronic eastern influence of post-art rock (hence their inclusion on the PA as Prog Related and in Crossover as Rain Tree Crow). While being superficially associated with New Romantics in purely a fashion sense, musically I don't get any goth chartacter from them. If I were only allowed to take one Japan album onto a desert island then it would be Tin Drum.
The Sisters didn't release anything until 1983 and their début album didn't come out until 1985, by then the Gothic Subculture was in full-swing, Japan and Bauhaus had disbanded, The Banshees had departed from Gothic Rock into lusher neo-Psych realms and The Cure had become MTV residents with quirky pop songs and quirkier pop videos. TSoM didn't hit the big time until Floodlands in 1987 and I suspect that's the stuff that you heard in rock clubs. If I were to be brutal I'd have to say that after 25 years I now find them irritating and would much rather listen to The Mission or the Nephs.
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 12:47
Dean wrote:
aapatsos wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, many of these had a goth character (not sure this is the right way to put it).Certainly I recall Sisters, Cure and Japan, less so Bauhaus. There were a few Sister tracks playing on a constant basis in the rock clubs where I used to hang out but metal got the best of me so I have to say I have no albums of the above bands in my possession.Any of them you would definitely recommend?
Post-punk is an umbrella term that encompasses a number of different music subgenres and Gothic Rock is just one of them. The Cure, Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees were not Gothic Rock but were certainly influential in its formation and were readily adopted by the Gothic subculture. Gothic Rock also includes a sizeable influence from Glam Rock as well as the darker aspects of late 60s Psychedelic Rock, developing as it did from the 80s synth-pop New Romantic movement (and it still retained some of the cheesy kitsch of that in both musical style and fashion sense).
I'm always reticent about recommending albums because it depends upon what you are looking for, all these bands changed over time as they became more successful (Bauhaus <span style="line-height: 1.2;">perhaps</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">less so</span><span style="line-height:
1.2;">). I'd not actually group these bands together even though all of them are held in special regard by the Gothic subculture, however, i</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">f you're looking for the darker side of post-punk then certainly the earlier albums The Banshees, The Cure and Bauhaus encapsulate that proto-gothic ethos. </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">The first two Banshees albums are what I would call true post-punk and as I commented earlier, John McKay's guitar playing pretty much defined post-punk playing (relentless </span>arpeggio<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> chord picking over an almost drone-like power chord rhythm) - this can also be viewed as the proto-gothic style too if you listen to Paul Wright and Peter Yates with Fields of the Nephilim and compare them to the previously mentioned Switch from The Banshees' The Scream album. The Banshees fourth album </span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">JuJu is regarded as their only gothic album, and some say it is the album that more or less kicked-off the genre in the public consciousness, but to be honest I could listen to their entire discography in constant rotation from now until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil and I'd die a happy man.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">The Cure are all over the place to be frank. Faith and Pornography are the epitome of that darker gothic ethos, that they returned to later on Disintegration and more recently (2000) Bloodflowers. </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">Bauhaus was (in retrospect) incredibly short-lived, releasing four albums in four years, my personal favourite is The Sky's Gone out with the Press the Eject And Give Me The Tape bonus live album, but I wouldn't be able to fit a Rizla between any of them.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">Japan is the odd one out here as their musical style isn't related to any of the others and are more glam/krautrock/art rock in their early years and then developed into a more electronic eastern influence of post-art rock (hence their inclusion on the PA as Prog Related and in Crossover as Rain Tree Crow). While being superficially associated with New Romantics in purely a fashion sense, musically I don't get any goth chartacter from them. If I were only allowed to take one Japan album onto a desert island then it would be Tin Drum.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">The Sisters didn't release anything until 1983 and their </span>début<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> album didn't come out until 1985, by then the Gothic Subculture was in full-swing, Japan and Bauhaus had disbanded, The Banshees had departed from Gothic Rock into lusher neo-Psych realms and The Cure had become MTV residents with quirky pop songs and quirkier pop videos. TSoM didn't hit the big time until Floodlands in 1987 and I suspect that's the stuff that you heard in rock clubs. If I were to be brutal I'd have to say that after 25 years I now find them irritating and would much rather listen to The </span>Mission<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> or the Nephs.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
As Dean says its very difficult to recommend something from these bands as they're very different beasts. As far as 'Gothic' music is concerned I like to describe most of the bands here as 'gothic' as they nearly all grew up before the term had been coined to describe the mid 80s genre. Just about all of them rejected the label (I suspect on grounds that it was likely to limit their potential market) only the Sex Gang Children might openly embrace being called Gothic. (Andi Sexgang the Gothic Goblin) and they were originally part of the so called Positive Punk movement (they're the nearest thing to punk here).
It was my impression that the fans of bands such as Joy Division, THe Cure, Sisters, Theatre of Hate, Siouxsie, Killing Joke and all the darker aspects of music grew into some mass of people that began to dress like each other (black) go to the same gigs share the same likes and eventually get labelled. They were pretty well nearly all punks first and as punk lost it's aggression and the fans wanted something with more depth they became 'goths' and also began to mix in psychedelic music and bands.
I would much rather listen to Early Sisters than anything the neph's ever did. I mean the compilation 'Some Girls Wander By Mistake' or live bootlegs prior to 1985 but I would suspect you might prefer the later stuff. I am a big fan of Bauhaus's BBC sessions. Besides this what Dean says^ lol. You might like some Gang of Four. I don't really know.
What Dean says about Siouxsie Sioux too. Greatest band ever. waffle waffle waffle
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 15:29
Dean wrote:
Post-punk is an umbrella term that encompasses a number of different music subgenres and Gothic Rock is just one of them. The Cure, Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees were not Gothic Rock but were certainly influential in its formation and were readily adopted by the Gothic subculture. Gothic Rock also includes a sizeable influence from Glam Rock as well as the darker aspects of late 60s Psychedelic Rock, developing as it did from the 80s synth-pop New Romantic movement (and it still retained some of the cheesy kitsch of that in both musical style and fashion sense).
I'm reminded of Jim Derogatis' argument in Turn on Your Mind (the book he wrote about psychedelic music's history) for The Doors having ideologically too little in common with their psychedelic contemporaries to really be considered part of that scene, and more than anything else being a forerunner of the gothic rock scene that popped up 10 years later. I think he's on to something, there's gotta be a reason they re-united with Ian Astbury singing for them or why Echo and the Bunnymen covered People Are Strange.
I'm always reticent about recommending albums because it depends upon what you are looking for, all these bands changed over time as they became more successful (Bauhaus perhapsless so). I'd not actually group these bands together even though all of them are held in special regard by the Gothic subculture, however, if you're looking for the darker side of post-punk then certainly the earlier albums The Banshees, The Cure and Bauhaus encapsulate that proto-gothic ethos.
Adding to the confusion is that not just many of those early bands but also some of their followers (e. g. The Sisters of Mercy) rejected the "gothic rock" categorization which started as how Joy Division described their own style even though I'm not sure they intended it to stick as a genre. Then there's the question of how the United States' "deathrock" scene (Christian Death, The Gun Club, Radio Werewolf etc.) fit into the question... they kind of arrived at a sorta-similar aesthetic and sound just by virtue of parallel evolution.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 20:53
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Dean wrote:
Post-punk is an umbrella term that encompasses a number of different music subgenres and Gothic Rock is just one of them. The Cure, Bauhaus and Siouxsie and the Banshees were not Gothic Rock but were certainly influential in its formation and were readily adopted by the Gothic subculture.Gothic Rock also includes a sizeable influence from Glam Rock as well as the darker aspects of late 60s Psychedelic Rock, developing as it did from the 80s synth-pop New Romantic movement (and it still retained some of the cheesy kitsch of that in both musical style and fashion sense).
I'm reminded of Jim Derogatis' argument in Turn on Your Mind (the book he wrote about psychedelic music's history) for The Doors having ideologically too little in common with their psychedelic contemporaries to really be considered part of that scene, and more than anything else being a forerunner of the gothic rock scene that popped up 10 years later. I think he's on to something, there's gotta be a reason they re-united with Ian Astbury singing for them or why Echo and the Bunnymen covered People Are Strange.
I don't think Jim Derogatoryitus knows his arts from his elbow, I read most of what he writes as speculative fiction.
There was a slight resurgence in psychedelic rock in the 80s (neo-psychedelic). You cannot single-out The Doors or Gothic Rock as being unique in that respect even if you add The Banshees cover of Lost Little Girl because you've got dozens of post-punk bands (not just gothic-ish bands) also covering other 60s Psych bands at that time. The Doors were indeed influential - just listening to Dave Greenfield of the Stranglers will tell you that much - but so where the Velvets, the Beatles, Syd Barrett, Nick Drake and Tim Buckley etc.
The Bunnies recorded People Are Strange for teh soundtrack to Lost Boys - remember the b-side of that EP also had Bunny-covers of Paint It Black (The Stones), Run, Run, Run (The Velvets) and Friction (Television), and the soundtrack album features a covers by Roger Daltry, Tim Capello and INXS so there is no great significance in the recording of a Doors track (other than Ray Manzarek producing it for them).
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I'm always reticent about recommending albums because it depends upon what you are looking for, all these bands changed over time as they became more successful (Bauhaus perhapsless so). I'd not actually group these bands together even though all of them are held in special regard by the Gothic subculture, however, if you're looking for the darker side of post-punk then certainly the earlier albums The Banshees, The Cure and Bauhaus encapsulate that proto-gothic ethos.
Adding to the confusion is that not just many of those early bands but also some of their followers (e. g. The Sisters of Mercy) rejected the "gothic rock" categorization which started as how Joy Division described their own style even though I'm not sure they intended it to stick as a genre. Then there's the question of how the United States' "deathrock" scene (Christian Death, The Gun Club, Radio Werewolf etc.) fit into the question... they kind of arrived at a sorta-similar aesthetic and sound just by virtue of parallel evolution.
No one knows how the Gothic subculture got its name - I've heard the Joy Division explanation, I've heard the Andi Sexgang explanation that our friend with the Berk avatar alluded to earlier and I've heard the Siouxsie JuJu explanation - and none of them are convincing simply because there was such a long time-gap between those singular events and the emergence of the subculture. Personally I think it came independently and was a natural evolution from New Romantics - as they centred around the Blitz club, the "goths" centred around the Batcave (there was a nightclub in Leicester called Etches that was a darker form of The Blitz that reflected the beginning of that transition from New Romantic to Gothic) - if you consider that New Romantics harked back to the Romantic era of early 19th century England then the related Gothic revival of that era is mirrored in the Gothic subculture of the 20th century.
The deathrock scene is barely related and in the early days was as unrelated as you can possibly get - it was camp rockabily and surf rock by comparison, owing more to Sha-na-na and the B52s than the Doors or even Bowie. The writers of music history like to suggest that by 1983 American deathrock and British Goth rock scenes were merging and cross-fertilising, but if you listen to the music you can see that is a nonsense - the flow of musical influence was completely in one direction - to the west, the Brits didn't even take much from the fashion either - the gothic-style was already there. There were few (if any) British deathrock bands.
There is only so much you can get from a book, especially those written by people who were not there.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:07
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:20
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:25
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
Dean you are very naughty because you just confused me more now, the topic was "When Punk was Dead". I am a nincompoop thus cannot see the any clue between punk and more punk whatsoever anyway hugs to you, Dean
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:45
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
What do you consider post Punk? Grunge? Anything related with the name punk does not sound interesting nor appealing to me, unless anyone can prove me wrong but to date not found it.
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:48
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I sincerely don't like Punk, they have no instrumental rhythmic sense whatsoever, it's like a rock ballad turned into a bad nightmare and who cares about tunes as long as one strums along
Post punk is not Punk, the clue is in the name.
Dean you are very naughty because you just confused me more now, the topic was "When Punk was Dead". I am a nincompoop thus cannot see the any clue between punk and more punk whatsoever anyway hugs to you, Dean
None of these bands are Punk bands. Only a couple of them were even associated with Punk, this is what came after punk (ie when punk was dead).
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 21:51
There are a bunch of great bands with punky elements, Cardiacs and Uz Jsme Doma to name two of my favorites. Look at the bands in the poll to see what post punk is. I vote Joy Division.
Ian
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When Punk was Dead
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aapatsos wrote:
anyway hugs to you, Dean 
SERIOUSLY 
