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Well, if we are talking as Prog guitarist than Fripp, no question. Iommi is a heavy metal guitarist and he's better at making killer riffs.
If you want to talk technique than that's also Fripp by a mile. Fripp's right-hand picking technique is at a level that maybe only a handful of guitarists in the world could replicate.
Is Iommis playing technic, is it alternate picking or crosspicking, he is verry delicate and elegant in his lefthand playing, intricate
I don't really know for sure, but I remember watching Iommi in the summer of 74' when the T.V. broadcasted California Jam. His left hand seemed to be very independent. A more complex version of that style of playing can sometimes be sampled with Alan Holdsworth....where a guitarist chooses to play many notes and only striking with the pick once or twice and of course using sustain or distortion to enhance the ringing out of the notes. By the time Heaven and Hell was released Iommi seemed to be using the pick more though. I recall hearing that.
I'm really going off thread to announce some insight on my personal experience with the social environment in 1971, but hell....we are on the subject of Iommi so be it. In 71' I was 15 years old, had just purchased the first Black Sabbath album...and was attempting to learn the songs on guitar like a few other kids in my age group. There were hippies all around me and not just my older sister's friends..but in school. They were seniors and when we brought our albums to school for music class...they picked on us. I still recall those shrude remarks at age 15 ...."Hey kid...that album you have?" "It really sucks!" "That guitar player is horrible!" "He can't play like Clapton". Clapton is God had only been written on a wall in London England (I believe?), a few years before and the majority of the hippie movement made fun of bands like Sabbath and linked them in with the NO TALENT of Grand Funk Railroad.
The pressure was on us from the hippies to dislike the music of Sabbath. If you listen to the band Mountain playing "Blood of the Sun" on the Woodstock recordings, after the applause there is silence...where upon some snooty character screams out very clearly...."They suck!" Many hippies on the east coast of the U.S. disliked the heavier bands and hated the fact that they would over throw the more melodic psychedelic and British Blues Boom scene. All of my sister's hippie friends complained about it at my parents house. That was a strange time for a 15 year old to live in. I liked Peter Green , Mike Bloomfield, and John Mayall....but Sabbath seemed like it invaded their good time. Now...that is strange to think of. It seems like a reality that never existed and it surely did. I wonder if that went down in England as well?
Thanks for posting this vid! Very cool! Don't forget to read my last post on the thread Black Sabbath vs. Rush. I remember a vid where Iommi was pulling gifts out of a bag. He pulls out a book on witchcraft and he says.."I'm not going to say anything". He was well aware of the hype and accusations of the band for years and needed to say that. I think it's hilarious.
Tommy, (really, Tommy?) (sic) and Bob (well as he used to be) Fripp are both great examples of how youcan get an electric guiatr, plug it in (the important bit before the strumming) and get two unique identities that I would not be withoutin my collection.
They are both innovators of inventive styles on guitar that changed the way music was being played prior to the surfacing of the 2 in the music business. They are both important regarding change.
Technique is a entire different observation. First of all...Fripp was very schooled or sounded extremely schooled dating back to 68' on the Giles, Giles, & Fripp album. Tony Iommi had a short spell with Jethro Tull during that time and I'm unsure if he was to Fripp's level then. I believe he appears on the film "Rock n' Roll Circus"? Fripp had an amazing technique early on with cross picking 24 notes of the Tri Tone ..Devil's interval and then in reverse with absolute precision like a Jazz guitarist. I'm unsure if Tony Iommi was playing this sort of guitar style and it's possible that Fripp was more advanced.
Iommi may have had no interest in playing that way and in some sense..it is pointless to bring this to the table..however ..it comes to mind due to the extreme difference between the 2 of them regarding technique. Iommi had damaged his hand and he had a lot going for him in the area of re-development. He must get credit for that because it's a task that many musicians may have dismissed and threw in the towel. Iommi progressed as a player on Heaven & Hell. That was obvious. He even changed his sound a bit. His licks were faster and cleaner by that point in time. Fripp had been playing pieces by Paganini in the 60's and Iommi may have been playing more of a Blues style then...which...is self explanatory as to how he may have impressed Jethro Tull and got the gig. What I've heard from Mick Abrahams on This Was really didn't differ all that much from Iommi's abilities as a guitarist. Martin Barre also added a heavy attack on bass strings...just like Iommi did on Master of Reality. Iommi had a "hot lick" style where he added trills between note passages and it was appealing for the times. He may be more progressive than any of us are aware of today. I pick both.
He is. Iommi used not just the tri tone but minor major 7th intervals in his work. This is how he generates his riffs and gives Sabbath that rather unique sound some try and copy and fail. It's not just detuning guitars for heaviness. The Rock And Roll Doctor didn't get his honorary doctorate for just keeping Sabbath on a resuscitator in the 80s you know.
Just wonder why Fripp has no honorary doctorate or knighthood... Naturally both gents are essential listening.
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Posted: March 08 2014 at 14:50
Extremely tuff call...............Let me think.....................Mr. Iommi gets my vote.I was cranking Black Sabbath up long,long before i discovered King Crimson.What's ironic is i now listen to K.C. more than Sabbath. Uh i think we all knew the Poll maker meant "Tony".
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Posted: March 08 2014 at 23:48
dr wu23 wrote:
Both good guitarists for sure , but being a KC fan I gotta go with Fripp.
And Sabbath only wishes they ever made an album as truly heavy as Red.
And here comes the good ol' No True Scotsman fallacy. It's quite infallible as a fallback though. I wonder what truly heavy is supposed to mean. There is no rock album (that is prog plus non prog) that I love more than Red but I don't think it is as heavy as Dehumanizer. There's a video of a concert that aginor posted and it helps for the sake of comparison. Unfortunately, post-Ozzy Sabbath is for whatever reason excluded from discussion as if that band didn't exist. Red was tremendously heavy for 1974. But 1992 even Dehumanizer was just heavy metal.
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Posted: March 08 2014 at 23:50
FWIW, there's even a War Pigs-like riff lurking in the background during the beautiful saxophone solo on One More Red Nightmare. Black Sabbath could well have been the inspiration for Fripp wanting to make a 'heavy metal' album. I don't know that he has confirmed that and given that he tends to describe any regular rock guitarist as some loathsome hairy creature, I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't.
Fripp gets my vote, inc. for most Grumpy "prog God"
Forgive me..but I just discovered your post and I'm laughing and crying at the same time. I find it difficult to believe that Fripp ever surpassed his shocking experience with McDonald & Giles. Do you recall that? They were driving to a show in the state of California when McDonald & Giles announced their departure from King Crimson. Fripp's heart pounded and his stomach dropped. That may seem over the top? Nonsense! That was everything Fripp had ever worked for and he had the carpet pulled from underneath him. It's one of the most devastating experiences a musician can have when rising above all the politics. He turned into a grumpy "prog God" because of his misfortune and after reading endless books and Fripp diary...I have respect for him surviving the wrath of the music business.
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Robert Fripp or Tony Iommi
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aginor wrote:
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