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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 03:09
moshkito: you might not like what Julian Cope, Robyn Hitchcock and company did with their inspiration from Syd Barrett or conclude they did not really understand him... but inspired by him they were. Those musicians would be first to tell you so if you were to look up any interviews with them.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 06:56
There seems to be this misguided idea of numerological point-scoring is a requirement for a band to be classified as Progressive Rock (and one that the Jim "proof-by-list-making" Derogatoryitis is most prone too), and this is not a system that I subscribe to, and thankfully, nor is it one that is employed here at the PA. 

With the right instruments anything can be made to sound classical, and with hammonds, mellotrons, synthesisers and guitar effects pedals those right instruments are readily to hand in every Progressive Rock band. I know from my own compositions/recordings that if I set up my keyboard with double-bass, cello, viola and violin samples and start composing the result is going to sound like a string quartet regardless of the structure of the piece. I could play Three Blind Mice backwards (suitably layered for those four instruments) and that would sound like a string quartet piece.

Similarly if a band uses "strings" (be that an organ stop, a mellotron bank, a synth patch, an ebow or simply "violining" a guitar) then what they produce using that is going to sound classical-inspired regardless of the structure of the piece. In the early days of this site an occasional misconception, certainly with Symphonic Prog suggestions (that still persists to day to some extent), was that anything that employed keyboard orchestration in this way should be considered to be Prog Rock by default.

A history lesson of an invented history, of sorts...

In the early days of Popular Music the "band" was an orchestra, popular singers sang the hits of the day to an orchestral backing, even with popular jazz the concept of the jazz orchestra far outweighed jazz produced by a small jazz band in popularity. Aside from the use of an orchestra to create the music, nothing in that was even remotely regarded as classical music. By the late 50s the advent of Rock and Roll appeared to changed that, with idea that a beat-combo of four or five musicians could produce popular music without the need for an orchestra, yet when we listen to most of the popular records of that era the orchestra is still present, for example in this chart-topping hit from 1965:


and again in this one:


The cost of employing the orchestra to provide this orchestral backing to the recording was expensive, each member of the orchestra needed paying at the Union rate. So some bands used the electric organ to replace the orchestra:


and here we even get a touch of flute...


And as time progressed new developments in keyboard instruments augmented that organ backing, and even elevated it to a lead role.


However, the concept of the orchestral padding out of a recording persists. We tend to think of popular music being a layering of beat, rhythm and melody but this orchestral padding is providing none of that, it is adding harmony by underpinning the overlaying melody to produce a depth to the music that it would otherwise lack. Where beat and rhythm form the foundation and melody the structure, this padding is the cement that holds it all together and fills-in the gaps. Synth Pads (the name is no accident) essentially emulating those slow organ swells and mellotron strings are the predominant form of this musical filler today.

I recall an early (and oft repeated) criticism of Rick Wright's contribution to Pink Floyd's music was the over-use of the "Dawn of Man" slow crescendos that underpin many of their early "epics" but in reality that is no different to the use of the mellotron on In The Court Of The Crimson King (especially on Epitaph, the title track and that toe-curling Greg Lake 40s throw-back ballad, I Talk To The Trees Wind), any Moody Blues or Genesis album or all Tony Kaye Yes albums and a few of the later Wakemen Yes albums where he turns in a perfunctory "by-the-numbers" performance (sorry, but it had to be said). In all these cases the keyboards are providing the filler that "traditionally" would have been produced using a studio orchestra.


None of that is remotely classical influenced (as Jean rightfully asks: where is the polyphony? - there are many other musicological questions that it also raises relating to structure, composition, development of melody and orchestration and arrangement)

In Pink Floyd's first real stab at a non-rock oriented piece of avant-garde inspired music we certainly see clear evidence of this "Dawn of Man" padding (at 5:10) which is then taken up by Gilmour on the guitar while Wright takes over with what is the only melodic part of the music.


That is certainly influenced by classical music in its late 20th century form, Prog it is but Symphonic it is not. [I hate the term "neoclassical" btw, more for its generalised misapplication than its true very narrow and very limited meaning, anything and everything that it remotely long-winded and repetitive seems to attract the neoclassical tag, and that's just lazy and not what defines the neoclassical classical music era.]

What we see in Progressive Rock of the late sixties and early seventies is a melding of this "string" padding with virtuosity, a feature also prevalent in classical music where the concept of the maestro soloist displaying a virtuoso performance began, but there the similarity ends.


to be continued...


Edited by Dean - February 23 2014 at 07:02
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 07:31
I could of course have named many more aspects of classical music, like development and variation of a theme,. and as I said there are a few exceptions. "Meurglys III - The Songwriter's Guild" by Van der Graaf Generator begins like a fugue, for example, and there is a passage in "Lizard" by King Crimson which is like a fugue too


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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 08:54
Dean, I have one question further to your insightful comment on string padding.  While I do agree that string padding, as it is aptly called, is not classical music, I am curious as to what other influence, apart from classical music, could there be for the use of counterpoint in Jethro Tull or Gentle Giant tracks.  Even Yes and Genesis use a bit of counterpoint though it's not so prominent as those two bands.  In some cases like Supersister, the influence of Bach certainly sounds very prominent to me.  I am not saying that that alone makes it a classical equivalent; my question is simply was there any other source of influence for it other than classical music.  I am not very familiar with a lot of 50s and 60s music and I am curious whether, aside from an occasional Eleanor Rigby, there were any artists in pop or rock music using a lot of counterpoint (and which in turn could have influenced prog rock artists without their having to turn to classical music for inspiration).
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 09:32
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I could of course have named many more aspects of classical music, like development and variation of a theme,. and as I said there are a few exceptions. "Meurglys III - The Songwriter's Guild" by Van der Graaf Generator begins like a fugue, for example, and there is a passage in "Lizard" by King Crimson which is like a fugue too
Agreed (it's not often we agree, but when we do... )


Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Dean, I have one question further to your insightful comment on string padding.  While I do agree that string padding, as it is aptly called, is not classical music, I am curious as to what other influence, apart from classical music, could there be for the use of counterpoint in Jethro Tull or Gentle Giant tracks.  Even Yes and Genesis use a bit of counterpoint though it's not so prominent as those two bands.  In some cases like Supersister, the influence of Bach certainly sounds very prominent to me.  I am not saying that that alone makes it a classical equivalent; my question is simply was there any other source of influence for it other than classical music.  I am not very familiar with a lot of 50s and 60s music and I am curious whether, aside from an occasional Eleanor Rigby, there were any artists in pop or rock music using a lot of counterpoint (and which in turn could have influenced prog rock artists without their having to turn to classical music for inspiration).
Counterpoint (and counter-melody) in popular music is relatively rare because popular music by nature generally relies upon harmonic melody, however it is not unknown and can still retain a melodic harmony when done well. Counterpoint is a feature of some classical music, but it is not unique to classical. The finest example (though it pains me to say it) is Scarborough Fair/Canticle by Simon and Garfunkel


...and that is drawn more from traditional folk singing than any classical/coral singing. It would be a brave man to deny S&G's influence on popular music in general and thus Prog in particular. 

Of course, for a classic non-classic example we can go back to 1916...


(I love the line - "I don't care for your long-haired musicians with a fancy melody", it's just a shame about the casual racism of the following line)
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 09:46
I was thinking of S&G myself.  Hadn't heard Simple Melody before though, thanks.  And yes, I did have that question, was counterpoint also a part of folk music in Europe and, particularly, Britain?
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:01
Dean and I are both schooled in harmonics; it was part of my piano training.

one must , by the way, also not confuse counterpoint with pseudo-polyphony (my attempt of translating the German  word "Scheinpolyphonie" into English; there is no English term for it)..two different voices do not automatically make polyphony; the important thing is that they are independent of each other. when they just follow harmonic progression then it is pseudo-polyphony.

and I hope I do not have to point out that quint accompaniment is most definitely not polyphony. it is actually so cheap a trick that you won't find it in any classical composition

Edited by BaldJean - February 23 2014 at 10:02


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Points: 13056 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I was thinking of S&G myself.  Hadn't heard Simple Melody before though, thanks.  And yes, I did have that question, was counterpoint also a part of folk music in Europe and, particularly, Britain?

Counterpoint in a 15th century song (a carol for Henry V's victory at Agincourt):

 

and a more modern version by the wonderful Maddy Prior and June Tabor (Silly Sisters):
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:04
@ Bald Jean Of course, completely agree that they need to be independent to be counterpoint.  But I am curious.  Are you trying to say there is no instance of true counterpoint in any prog at all?  I am not sure I go along with you there.

Edited by rogerthat - February 23 2014 at 10:12
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:12
@ The Dark Elf  Interesting.  So it's quite possible that the technique was used outside classical music which later adapted and explored it.
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Points: 13056 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

@ The Dark Elf  Interesting.  So it's quite possible that the technique was used outside classical music which later adapted and explored it.

Much of what we consider "classical" originated from music of the Church (the Gregorian Chants, for instance). Here is an instance of polyphony in a mass written by Guillaume de Mauchat (a fascinating poet and composer, beyond this piece), Messe de Nostre Dame (circa 1365):
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 10:42
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

@ Bald Jean Of course, completely agree that they need to be independent to be counterpoint.  But I am curious.  Are you trying to say there is no instance of true counterpoint in any prog at all?  I am not sure I go along with you there.

I am not saying that at all; I am  just saying it is rare. Gentle Giant have a few examples, most outstandingly so in "Knots".

as to dependence of voices: I am not only talking of two voices following each other in a certain tone distance. as long as both lines only consist of notes that follow the harmonic progression it is not polyphony.

an example:  "Winter Wine" by Caravan. bass and keyboards play different lines, and not just in a certain tone distance. yet both lines just follow the harmonic progression (meaning they play notes of the actual chord). that is NOT polyphony


Edited by BaldJean - February 23 2014 at 10:45


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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:16
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I am of the completely different opinion. if the second were true it would reduce "prog" to "symphonic prog". also I don't see any classical influence,  not even in symphonic prog (with a few exceptions). where is the polyphony which is so typical for classical music? there hardly is any in prog music. and the harmonic progression is simple compared to the harmonic progression in classical music. no, the influence of classical music on prog is vastly overrated
 
I would like to comment that polyphony with 32 instruments is much easier than with 3 (excluding drummer in the number!), thus we're not likely to find as much of it on rock music, though it could be said that some keyboard artists added to their work so there would be things in it, that were closer to these elements you mention in classical music. Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson come to mind immediately, but they also knew classical music very well, and it would, normally, be an influence, and it was.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:22
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I was thinking of S&G myself.  Hadn't heard Simple Melody before though, thanks.
I was also reminded of this classic Morecambe and Wise sketch featuring Elton John that shows the difficulty in singing counterpoint:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 And yes, I did have that question, was counterpoint also a part of folk music in Europe and, particularly, Britain?
As Jean has explained, counterpoint is when the voices (or instrument voices) are independent harmonically but dependant in rhythm and pitch (were pitch is dependant on key but not necessarily harmonic), so this is actually very difficult to achieve "off the cuff" (see above M&W video) without careful musical direction, this is something you would see in an orchestra or choir but not something that would spontaneously arise in ad hoc ensemble singing. A variant related to counterpoint is the canon where the independent voices play the same melody delayed in time, the earliest forms of canon were the English Round, a folk tradition where several singers would sing the same song separated by a number of bars ("Row, row, row your boat" and "Frère Jacques" were the two rounds they'd inflict on us in junior school music lessons), we see this technique used very effectively by Queen and Savatage. Since folk music is the oldest musical tradition it is not stretching the truth to presume that many features of classical music had their origins in folk music.


(ps: people with no stomach for metal can fast-forward to 6:27 Wink)



Edited by Dean - February 23 2014 at 12:04
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Points: 7265 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:27
^fascinating thread!  I sang choral music at university, and one performance we did was a contemporary composition from a Univ of Illinois music professor that was, in retrospect, quite "progressive."  We even used a rather excellent electronic keyboard instrument, I cannot recall the name (not Mellotron nor Moog), it was a polyphonic organ of some sort that probably used a synth circuit.

I played this thing after hours and it sounded great!!  

Perhaps classical music would do well to incorporate elements of modern prog rock?  I have seen a bit of this over the years = synth guitar comes to mind.  

Question: would a Mellotron be able to find its place in a modern orchestra?  I would posit that in fact, it could. 
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I am of the completely different opinion. if the second were true it would reduce "prog" to "symphonic prog". also I don't see any classical influence,  not even in symphonic prog (with a few exceptions). where is the polyphony which is so typical for classical music? there hardly is any in prog music. and the harmonic progression is simple compared to the harmonic progression in classical music. no, the influence of classical music on prog is vastly overrated
 
I would like to comment that polyphony with 32 instruments is much easier than with 3 (excluding drummer in the number!), thus we're not likely to find as much of it on rock music, though it could be said that some keyboard artists added to their work so there would be things in it, that were closer to these elements you mention in classical music. Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson come to mind immediately, but they also knew classical music very well, and it would, normally, be an influence, and it was.

polyphony has nothing to do with the number of players at all; it does not happen by accident just because there are many players.

it is very difficult to write a polyphonic piece of music. Bach was the master of it. and he wrote six-voiced music for one player alone. and it does definitely not get easier if you use more players


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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 11:52
We should also remember that counterpoint is not a common feature of Classical music, for a while it was even regarded as being very unfashionable 


(Okay Pedro, this is your cue...)


Edited by Dean - February 23 2014 at 11:53
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 12:05
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

We should also remember that counterpoint is not a common feature of Classical music, for a while it was even regarded as being very unfashionable 


(Okay Pedro, this is your cue...)

that's quite true, Dean. both Beethoven and Mozart discovered Bach towards the end of their lives. when they did, however, they started to use it in their compositions too.

Bach was almost forgotten 100 years after his death since hardly any of his music existed in printed form. it was Schumann and most of all Mendelssohn who rediscovered him and made him popular again.

many composers were deeply influenced by Bach, most of all Max Reger and Heitor Villa-Lobos, and they wrote in contrapuntal style too


Edited by BaldJean - February 23 2014 at 12:06


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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 12:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

We should also remember that counterpoint is not a common feature of Classical music, for a while it was even regarded as being very unfashionable 


(Okay Pedro, this is your cue...)
 
HAHAHA ... thx Dean. Loved it!
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2014 at 21:52
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

We all know early Crimso is the best. Discipline is mainly prog, but certainly also new wave on a less integral level (whereas something like Magazine would be the other way around... or post-punk, it's basically the same. I use 'new wave' as the umbrella). It's the best album that has anything to do with that usually obnoxious style by an enormous margin.

We all know that sometimes our opinions appear to us as irrefutable facts but that's just the nature of passion I guessWink. I'm not sure however that we all know what you mean by that usually obnoxious style?

What I get from your post is this:

1 - what I like must have a connection to Prog or be predominantly Prog
2 - what I don't like cannot be remotely connected to Prog or contains sufficient new wave influences to qualify as obnoxious.

Why do people on this site continually feel the need to seek justification for their tastes by their resemblance to limiting aesthetic criteria that flourished for a brief few years during the 70's? I love the Clash and ELP, I love Echo & the Bunnymen and Gentle Giant, I love Can and the Fall (so did Mark E Smith) I love the Velvet Underground and the Nice, I love the Sex Pistols and VDGG (so did John Lydon) I love XTC and Greenslade. Whenever I get pulled over by the fashion cops for such perceived offences, I have to say that for me there is no contradiction, one style does not negate the other, music is an indivisible whole that only marketing has tried to carve up by way of foisting artificial brand loyalties upon those consumers.feckless enough to believe their feelings have finally dissolved into facts.


You got some bizarre things out of my post.

I don't like minimalist, tinny sounding bands that lack in melody and dynamics, and nowhere am I seeking 'justification' for that. It's fine if you do. The police are not after you. You seem to be responding to some imaginary persecution you've felt in the past rather than to my post.
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