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Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 08:51

The T wrote:

I'm calling them trolls because they have turned a lack of belief, a lack of desire to join a movement, into something resembling one, and I think for every person they manage to "convert", they make another one that was religious already a little bit more extreme.

I think that is a distorted view, and one promoted by their opponents, not by the "militant atheists" themselves. You are free to disagree and if we wait long enough someone will post the satirical 10 Commandments of Atheism again to prove their point.

The T wrote:

Statements like the idiocy of Ralph above with its "pedophile in the Vatican" are not precisely... enlightened.

I think we have all agreed that the idiot Ralph is an idiot.

Edited by Dean - January 31 2014 at 08:53

What?

Nogbad_The_Bad View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 08:56

Have to agree that people as idiotic as Ralph don't really help the atheist position.

Ian

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 08:57

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I didn't make the number up. Dean has posted my source.

American Protestantism is evangelistic. And belief in Creationism exists in other sects such as Catholics.

Again it's a Latin expression as in the case of neuralgic centre

"No puedo creer que existan" (I can't believe they exist)

It's not that I doubt what you say, it's an expression that describes how ridiculous is the situation that we now is real.

I knew there were millions of fanatic literal creationists, I have made mockery of the creationist museum, as I said before I can't believe that museum exists (I hope you get now what was my intention when I said I can't believe almost 50% of the population was creationist)

I believe you, what i can't believe is how fanatic people can be.

Again a problem of translation.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 09:01

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:01

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I didn't make the number up. Dean has posted my source.

American Protestantism is evangelistic. And belief in Creationism exists in other sects such as Catholics.

Again it's a Latin expression as in the case of neuralgic centre

"No puedo creer que existan" (I can't believe they exist)

It's not that I doubt what you say, it's an expression that describes how ridiculous is the situation that we now is real.

I believe you, what i can't believe is how fanatic people can be.

Again a problem of translation.

Iván

That's not what you said. You said

Honestly, can't believe that almost 50% of the population are creationists.

You said that you in all honesty do not believe the numbers that I quoted.

The words are as clear as day.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:08

^Pat, that type of expression ("I can't believe") is quite typical in Spanish, and even though the word "honestly" precedes it, remember, in the Spanish language and especially in Latin America we are not so literal in the use of words as English or (much more so) German speakers. What it really means is "honestly, it has left me utterly confused and I still can't grasp the fact that..."

Just trying to plant the seeds of peace and harmony... Tongue

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:32

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

He's hardly a troll, he puts forward his arguments in books and discussion forums. If you attack Christians with the same vitriol that Christians attack atheist this makes you a troll?

Please DON'T PUT CATHOLICS IN THE SAME SACK AS EVANGELISTS.

Our doctrine expresses respect for atheists and considers the posibility of salvation for atheists:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUMSOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

And remember, we alone are almost 66% of the Christians.

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:43

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I didn't make the number up. Dean has posted my source.

American Protestantism is evangelistic. And belief in Creationism exists in other sects such as Catholics.

Again it's a Latin expression as in the case of neuralgic centre

"No puedo creer que existan" (I can't believe they exist)

It's not that I doubt what you say, it's an expression that describes how ridiculous is the situation that we now is real.

I believe you, what i can't believe is how fanatic people can be.

Again a problem of translation.

Iván

That's not what you said. You said

Honestly, can't believe that almost 50% of the population are creationists.

You said that you in all honesty do not believe the numbers that I quoted.

The words are as clear as day.

Equality, if I had said that, I would had recognized my mistake.

That's how we Latin Americans speak, it's easy for us to translate what we say, but not to know if the expression means the same here and there.

No me lo puedo creer. dakar.com	I just cannot believe it. dakar.com
Todavía no me lo puedo creer que ahora tengo estos dientes perfectos y blancos. flydent.com	I still find it hard to believe that I am the owner of straight, white teeth. flydent.com
Sinceramente, casi no me lo puedo creer redtienda.com	Sincerely, I almost couldn't believe it redtienda.com
Nuestros hijos se están desarrollando de una forma que no me lo puedo creer. fra.europa.eu	Our children are developing themselves in a way thatI cannot believe. fra.europa.eu
Sinceramente no me lo puedo creer. giselapulido.es	Honestly I can't believe it.

http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/traduccion/no+me+lo+puedo+creer.html

I'm not an ignorant

- I know about the Bible Belt.

- I have seen photos of the Creation Museum and made fun of them.

- I remember when the phrase "Evolution is only a theory as Creationism" forced to be printed in books

- I know USA has almost 40% of evangelicals (Of multiple denominations) and ALL OF THEM HAVE LITERAL BELIEF IN CREATION.

I have many defects, but I never deny what I said and never lie, if I said something I'll stick to it, or if I'm wrong i would say sorry, I dion't knew.

But when I say we use this expression is because we use it.

Iván

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:53

Catholics are not oceans of open-mindedness either Ivan. They are not as literal and (from my perspective) terrible as some evangelists, but having grown up in a Catholic country just north of yours I know Catholics can be quite bad when it comes to rejecting those who don't think like them.

And the phrase you mention in Lumen Gentium doesn't really recognize respect for atheists, in my opinion. "Without blame on their part"? "Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel."

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 09:59

The T wrote:

Catholics are not oceans of open-mindedness either Ivan. They are not as literal and (from my perspective) terrible as some evangelists, but having grown up in a Catholic country just north of yours I know Catholics can be quite bad when it comes to rejecting those who don't think like them.

Well, we have to praise our beliefs.

Blame of their part is referred to those whio having been Catholics and raised as Catholics, abandon the church for atheism

Evangelicals just believe atheists go to hell without scales.

¿But tell me?

¿Have you ever seen a Catholic visiting your house to impulse religion?

¿Have you ever seen the Pope insulting any religion?

I seen the Pope kissing the Qu'ran, and we were insulted by evangelicals.

Evangelicals do this:

We are very open minded, not perfect, but respectful.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 10:03

Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:07

^ eek! Even an atheist such as I would never tar all evangelists with the same brush as those extremists.

What?

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:23

Dean wrote:

^ eek! Even an atheist such as I would never tar all evangelists with the same brush as those extremists.

Not all of course.

But most of them are very radical and fanatic.

They believe the Bible is the only truth and seek to destroy anything that opposes to it.

They even attack our Bible because we have 7 books more (They forget that Luther deleted the books, that existed before him).

You guys who live in Protestant countries, don't suffer this, because Protestants there are used to be majority, here in Perú they are aggressive, disrespectful, because they have grown from 5% to 9% or 10% and are in a belligerent campaign.

They come to our houses to insult the Church, and no matter how many times we ask them to leave ion different forms

1.- Ask them politely not to come

2.- Order them to abandon our property

3.- Shout them to leave.

They always come back and are more aggressive.

Last week I found one in my living room talking with the maid without my permission, I ordered him to leave and fired the maid (She can't allow strangers to enter to our property in a country where a house is assaulted every 2 minutes, and having we been assaulted), now the maid is evangelical and talking with all the maids in the block and everybody is angry at me.

Honestly, I have no respect for the vast majority of Evangelicals.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 10:27

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:28

Wherever there was gold discovered you will find evidence of catholic missionaries. Just google gold and catholic missionaries and you can read for weeks.

Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:31

If people cannot be tolerant of denominations of their own religion then what chance is there for total religious tolerance?

What?

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:33

timothy leary wrote:

Wherever there was gold discovered you will find evidence of catholic missionaries. Just google gold and catholic missionaries and you can read for weeks.

We are very open minded, not perfect, but respectful."

And then I fired the maid and took away her livelihood because she dared to think differently than me.

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Well, we have to praise our beliefs. That is what religious people do and that's what I don't want to see atheists or agnostics doing, praising their beliefs (or lack thereof really) and evangelizing about them.

Blame of their part is referred to those whio having been Catholics and raised as Catholics, abandon the church for atheism So basically almost every atheist. Most atheists become so of their own accord (at least until recently). So they are all "to blame? "

Evangelicals just believe atheists go to hell without scales.Not that much worse than going to hell in stages.

¿But tell me?

¿Have you ever seen a Catholic visiting your house to impulse religion?

¿Have you ever seen the Pope insulting any religion?

I seen the Pope kissing the Qu'ran, and we were insulted by evangelicals.

No argument here. I applaud this.

Evangelicals do this: Whatever one might think of some Popes, they are highly educated. Can't be compared to this bigot.

We are very open minded, not perfect, but respectful.

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:36

Dean wrote:

If people cannot be tolerant of denominations of their own religion then what chance is there for total religious tolerance?

It will soon happen to atheism... Unhappy

Padraic

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:39

timothy leary wrote:

timothy leary wrote:

Wherever there was gold discovered you will find evidence of catholic missionaries. Just google gold and catholic missionaries and you can read for weeks.

We are very open minded, not perfect, but respectful."

And then I fired the maid and took away her livelihood because she dared to think differently than me.

He fired the maid because she allowed a stranger on the property without permission.

Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:43

The T wrote:

Dean wrote:

If people cannot be tolerant of denominations of their own religion then what chance is there for total religious tolerance?

It will soon happen to atheism... Unhappy

Probably. When anyone climbs onto a soap-box and claims to talk on behalf of an entire section of the population then there will be dissent. If that section of the population is a group by disassociation then there can be no majority voice to oppose them, so with atheism because it is NOT an organised grouping with common beliefs, aims or goals no one can claim to speak for all of us, nor can they represent the views of all of us.

What?

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:52

Dean wrote:

If people cannot be tolerant of denominations of their own religion then what chance is there for total religious tolerance?

We are absolutely tiollerant with EVERY RELIGION:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel

This is what we believe, but we were insulted, attacked, offended for decades and we kept silent.

Well, we are tired of that,. evangelicals are aggressive offensive and attack us in daily bases.

- The Pope calls them separate brrothers...They call the Pope the Antichrist

- The Pope call them Christians...They call Catholics the Whore of Babylon.

- We don't attack them in the web...9 of every 10 evangelical site is created to insult the Catholics.

- We respect their belliefs...They insult Mary who we believe is the mother of God

Tolerance is OK, but they crossed the line...Still we don't attacl them, we simply don't respect them.

They even lie, still today many protestant sites present this photo of a young Ratzinger giving the Nazi salute

This would be stupid, because Ratzinger was priest only in 1948 in Germany (Anybody who made a Nazi salurte in 1948 Germany could end in prison)...But also proved to be false.

BUT WE DISCOVERED THE TRUE PHOTO

Ratzinger with his brother giving the blessing

John Cornwell presented hios book "The Nazi Pope" with this photo of Pius XII after an alleged reunion with Hitler (This photo is used by evangelicals)

Ahh, the dirty Pope surrounded by Nazi soldiers...But the photo is fake

The photo was taken in 1929, when Wilhem Marx was Chancellor and Hitler had no role in Germany

We are tired of this dirtuy attacks, we won't fall on that level, but don't ask us to respect them.

We don't attack them, we ignore them.. Some of us have simply no respect for them.

The

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 11:09

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 10:56

Ivan, no matter what Lumen Gentium says, most Catholics haven't read it and what matters is their actions, not one document that is completely ignored by a large amount of its population.

And even that document still isn't as "love all people" as it would be nice to believe.