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Dean

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 08:58

because he's Canadian and it's Canadia?

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Svetonio

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 21:27

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The only thing interesting about that article is that someone would put that man in charge of the defense of an entire nation.

Why you think so? Did you think that the former Canadian Minister of Defence Mr Paul Hellyer is a lunatic who somehow managed to pass the tests for servicemen, or you say it because you think that Mr Paul Hellyer should not disclose classified military informations on RT?

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Posted: January 28 2014 at 22:08

I think we can safely say Mr. Hellyer is reporting what he believes, is not suffering from a major psychological condition, or is aeronautically uninformed; he graduated from Curtiss-Wright Tech, became a pilot and later helped build aircraft for the RCAF. Some of his later claims about aliens living among us and George Bush wanting to put weapons on the Moon are quite out there, but not much more than Stephen Hawking saying that if aliens exist they could be dangerous.

Dean

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Posted: January 29 2014 at 01:31

Atavachron wrote:

I think we can safely say Mr. Hellyer is reporting what he believes, is not suffering from a major psychological condition, or is aeronautically uninformed; he graduated from Curtiss-Wright Tech, became a pilot and later helped build aircraft for the RCAF. Some of his later claims about aliens living among us and George Bush wanting to put weapons on the Moon are quite out there, but not much more than Stephen Hawking saying that if aliens exist they could be dangerous.

Ah, no. Hawking's statement contains the words if and could, Hellyer's does not.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 29 2014 at 08:15

Svetonio wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The only thing interesting about that article is that someone would put that man in charge of the defense of an entire nation.

I'm saying he's a man who holds at least one belief incommensurable with reality.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 29 2014 at 08:17

Yes, there's quite a large difference. The claims of certainty and specificness of his claims separate the two by a chasm. That he believes his claims or that he earned an engineering degree half a century ago changes nothing about the absurdness of his claims.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: January 30 2014 at 19:21

^ Is that really the best you can come up with, 'He's a loon' ? You're gonna have to do a little better than that. Hellyer's a pilot and former Defence Minister and I'm suppose to give the credibility to the opposing view because it's the accepted and traditional one? I don't think so. And while it's true that Hawking's comments are speculation, "science fiction" if you will, where is the information, the observations, that would lead him to such a theory ? Or does he get a pass because he talks about non-Earth sentience only in terms of speculation?

Dean

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Posted: January 30 2014 at 20:11

Hawking is not presenting a theory. The information and observation that he bases his speculation on is the history of the human race, (which is the only intelligent life-form we do have any irrefutable information and observation on), what he said was: "If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the Native Americans" ... and that is a reasonable speculation even if lacking in a little historical accuracy. We should not assume that an advanced species capable of interstellar exploration would be benign.

Hellyer's credentials are not related to the claims he is making, therefore they do not add credibility to those claims.

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Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: January 30 2014 at 20:25

^ Depends on the claims-- don't get me wrong, I don't believe his conclusions at face value and there is no doubt he's probably lost most of his credibility. The point I'm making is that if a guy with his background ~ his physical contact with aeronautics and what a modern military might be experimenting with ~ is saying he thinks that past and present alien contact is likely, those claims carry as much weight as those that come from speculation. Hawking is speaking in imaginative terms, Hellyer is not. Neither is very convincing, frankly.

Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 03:22

Atavachron wrote:

^ Depends on the claims-- don't get me wrong, I don't believe his conclusions at face value and there is no doubt he's probably lost most of his credibility. The point I'm making is that if a guy with his background ~ his physical contact with aeronautics and what a modern military might be experimenting with ~ is saying he thinks that past and present alien contact is likely, those claims carry as much weight as those that come from speculation. Hawking is speaking in imaginative terms, Hellyer is not. Neither is very convincing, frankly.

Well, first off Hellyer is not saying that he thinks that past and present alien contact is likely, he is saying that "there are live ETs on Earth at this present time, and at least two of them are working with the United States government". If he were simply saying that something is likely then his statements would be equal to Hawking's, but he is not being speculative, he is saying they ARE here and they ARE working with the US government.

While it may seem relevant that he was a military pilot and involved in aeronautical projects it actually isn't. His beliefs are not based upon his military and governmental experiences, they are based upon Philip Corso's The Day After Roswell, he never refers to his military or political experiences with regard to UFOs or alien visitors. Furthermore his beliefs and claims are made long after his military and government service career had ended and refer to alleged facts that post-date his involvement in any governmental role or military projects by several years. Relying on his background for any credibility is an argument from authority fallacy.

Edited by Dean - January 31 2014 at 03:24

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Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 03:50

^ His beliefs are partly based on a book, but also because he saw an aerial object doing maneuvers he couldn't explain. It is a weak foundation to base outrageous claims on, though, and he'd have done everyone a favor by qualifying and conserving his assertions.

Dean

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 07:28

Atavachron wrote:

^ His beliefs are partly based on a book, but also because he saw an aerial object doing maneuvers he couldn't explain.

To quote Hellyer himself on the sighting:

"Naturally they had taken the precaution of bringing
a little firewater to lubricate the vocal cords and ward
offthe chill of the night. On that occasion Jack Daniels
bourbon was the poison of choice. A couple of hours
later a bright light appeared in the southern sky directly
across the lake. It could have been an airplane, but it
zig-zagged across the horizon in a very erratic fashion.
Some thought it might be an airplane while others insisted
that it was a UFO."

Meanwhile, here is a picture of a pinch of salt.

Atavachron wrote:

It is a weak foundation to base outrageous claims on, though, and he'd have done everyone a favor by qualifying and conserving his assertions.

Except that he cannot qualify any of his assertions otherwise he would have.

How do you even begin to qualify that three of his species of alien visitor come from, respectively, an unspecified moon of Saturn, The Pleiades (400ly away) and the Andromeda Galaxy (2,500,000ly away) for example.

Edited by Dean - January 31 2014 at 07:28

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 08:47

Atavachron wrote:

^ Is that really the best you can come up with, 'He's a loon' ? You're gonna have to do a little better than that. Hellyer's a pilot and former Defence Minister and I'm suppose to give the credibility to the opposing view because it's the accepted and traditional one? I don't think so. And while it's true that Hawking's comments are speculation, "science fiction" if you will, where is the information, the observations, that would lead him to such a theory ? Or does he get a pass because he talks about non-Earth sentience only in terms of speculation?

Actually, I don't need to do any better. He presented no evidence. He made a vaguely veiled appeal to his minimal authority and stated something as fact. He has to do much better.

You support the traditional view because it's the established one. It fits all of the evidence. I'm not going to believe that 4 species of aliens have been visiting the Earth for thousands of years because someone was a pilot. I'm not going to believe that 4 species who have mastered interstellar travel are concerned about the destructive nature of our nuclear weapons and our species which is confined within .6 AU of our orbit.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

dr wu23

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Posted: February 01 2014 at 17:57

For all those who have indeed...'seen the saucers'.

One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

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Posted: February 15 2014 at 07:54

Earlier this week I found this: A children's book written by a UFO contactee with the purpose of accustoming pre-schoolers to alien contact, to which the ufological response has been predictably divided.

It's finger-licking surreal!

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Dean

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Posted: February 15 2014 at 09:46

Stranger Danger...

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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down

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Posted: February 16 2014 at 11:26

Reminds me that I read this on Magonia a while ago...

Peter Rogerson wrote:

On a less sinister note, if people start suspecting the neighbourhood kids of being [extraterrestrial/human hybrids], then maybe some will take this identity on board, and we will have the start of a new youth culture, rather like the wannabe vampires and goths. The hybrid motif may well resonate with alienated young people in the liminal zone between childhood and adulthood, who feel neither one thing nor the other. Perhaps they will meet in sterile-looking clubs called hives with minimalist decor and reclaimed dental and medical furniture. The most fanatical will get their eyes surgically elongated and their lips amputated, this done by the more sleazy variety of plastic surgeon; the less well off in dingy tattoo parlours in the parts of town where, if you are not careful, your wallet will walk away leaving you bleeding to death on the ground.

Part of me thinks it would be really cool on an aesthetical level if that became an actual counterculture... well, minus the body modification part. Actually I'm kind of surprised that I haven't ever heard of any body modification enthusiasts getting plastic surgeries to look like Grey alien hybrids, quite a few supermodels kind of have that look....

...which means a significant amount of people must find it attractive.

Edited by Toaster Mantis - February 16 2014 at 11:29

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Dean

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Posted: February 16 2014 at 11:33

Toaster Mantis wrote:

Reminds me that I read this on Magonia a while ago...

...which means a significant amount of people must find it attractive.

Hey, leave Lily alone. Angry

Alas, that kind of body mutilation is already with us: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2122177/Meet-real-life-Barbies-Internet-craze-sees-teenagers-turn-freakish-living-dolls.html

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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down

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Posted: February 16 2014 at 12:02

"The future's already here, it's just unevenly distributed." - William Gibson

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Toaster Mantis View Drop Down

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Posted: February 16 2014 at 12:30

(and you've gotta admit that Lily Cole kind of looks like an alien, an angel or an elf)

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook