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Dean 
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 Posted: January 18 2014 at 01:55 |
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Perhaps it's an error only German and Dutch speakers make.
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What?
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Moogtron III
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Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 03:16 |
Van Beethoven "Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from" "Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet"  "Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"
So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens  |
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Dean
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 03:49 |
As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" . 
... or beer gardens.  |
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someone_else
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 05:49 |
 Dean wrote:
As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" .
... or beer gardens. |
His old man used to frequent the beer gardens on a regular base.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Points: 10616
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 08:46 |
Dean wrote:
As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" .
... or beer gardens. |
 Great!
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 20250
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:34 |
Moogtron III wrote:
Van Beethoven"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from" "Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" "Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"
So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens |
Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines) had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v") but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? 
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Polymorphia
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:54 |
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It's Vaughn. Ludwig Vaughn Beethoven. Or "L'Vaughn" for short.
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Tom Ozric
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Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 19:31 |
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I've always known it to be 'Von'.
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presdoug
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Location: Canada
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Posted: January 18 2014 at 20:32 |
How about "Furtwangler's Van Beethoven"? That's the real thing.
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Moogtron III
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Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Points: 10616
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Posted: January 19 2014 at 13:49 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Van Beethoven"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from" "Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" "Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"
So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens |
Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)
had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")
but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then???
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Lodewijk, yes! Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post. What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version... So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! 
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Posted: January 19 2014 at 18:11 |
No. Everybody everywhere has always written VAN. I don't know where this new "von" thing came from. Probably from a prog website or something  .
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:16 |
Moogtron III wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Van Beethoven"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from" "Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" "Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"
So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens |
Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)
had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")
but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then???
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Lodewijk, yes! Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post. What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version... So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! |
One of the most amazing read in the Netherlands is the Amsterdam phonebook  , where you'd have to look afor Ludwig's phone # under B ( for Beethoven, van) instead of V ( for Van B...)
Edited by Sean Trane - January 20 2014 at 04:22
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:41 |
As far as I remember (for all my life), it's "van". At this point to me "von Beethoven" sounds weird, ... doesn't sound right.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 20 2014 at 04:51
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:01 |
 
At first I thought there was some subtle nuance of Flemish I was missing here, but if anyone had actually looked at Ludwig's signature:
You can see that he uses an upper case "V" himself (though quite how that scribbled first word is "Ludwig" defeats me), however in this letter you can see he's invented a middle-case "v" And in others it's closer to a lower-case "v" - without going into an "scientific" investigation I suspect it changed over time to be less "Belgian" and more "Austrian".
Either way, filling him under "V" is like filing The Beatles under "T" isn't it? Sure you can do it, but it's not particularly helpful.
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What?
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: May 02 2008
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:28 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Van Beethoven"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from" "Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" "Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden" So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens
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Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? |
Lodewijk, yes! Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post. What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version... So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! |
One of the most amazing read in the Netherlands is the Amsterdam phonebook , where you'd have to look afor Ludwig's phone # under B ( for Beethoven, van) instead of V ( for Van B...)
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According to Dutch lexicographical logic, van der Aat's phone # is to be fount on one of the first pages of the phonebook. Prepositions and articles have a minor influence on the alphabetical order.
That's why I expected to find Van der Graaf Generator in the company of Genesis, Gentle Giant and Gnidrolog here on PA, years ago .
Edited by someone_else - January 20 2014 at 05:30
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:50 |
The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage. Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.
Here we regard VdGG as a whole band name rather than a personal name so would no more file them under "G" than we would Pink Floyd under "F" or Jethro Tull under "T" (though over the years many have tried) ... or perhaps Porcupine Tree under "T" or King Crimson under "C". Luckily we don't have to worry about Manfred Mann.
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What?
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:45 |
Dean wrote:
The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage. Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.
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Dutchmen would say: Robert van de Graaff, but: mr. Van de Graaff, so when the first name isn't being used, you capitalize the V Flemish people would always capitalize the V, in all circumstances But both the Dutch and the Flemings wouldn't capitalize the d. Easy does it
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Bonnek
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Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
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Points: 4515
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:47 |
Dean wrote:
The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage. Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.
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The official rule (for the Netherlands at least) is that you don't use capitals is the first name is given (or abbreviated). So: mister Robert van de Graaf mister R. van de Graaff If however the first name is not provided then the first letter of the family name prefixes must be capitalized. Hence: mister Van de Graaff So if you've seen it as Robert Van de Graaff then he probably forgot how to spell his own name from being American for too long. PS. I had to correct the above 3 times as I kept spelling Van de Graaf with one f. 2 ff's just doesn't make much sense at all in modern Dutch!
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Bonnek
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Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:48 |
That other Belgian here is too fast for me PS on topic. I always thought it was Von Beethoven as I was not aware of his Flemish origins.
Edited by Bonnek - January 20 2014 at 06:51
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Guldbamsen
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Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
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Points: 23104
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Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:51 |
Hmmm I never had this problem when I changed my Facebook name to Aladdin von Pottenheim (notice the small v in there). The von did have it's upsides though. Shortly after having changed my name, I was bombed with mails from Russia and Ukraine, where young women, who all seemed to be looking for sex(Yay!), clearly wanted me badly. My first reaction though was that they'd read the Aladdin part of the name and thought to themselves: 'Oy isn't that the guy with the lamp and the cute blue hovering dude?' and then later on I remembered just how many lords and counts who tend to have a 'von' snuck in somewhere in their name.... Either way, I never befriended any of those girls - I was a little worried about them turning out to be some old guy from Stockholm that for some reason just had a thing for my, at the time, rainbow-coloured hair due.
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Van or Von??
