The New Neal Morse Appreciation Thread

zumacraig wrote: Christianity is about individual salvation.  Focus on the individual is infantile as per your definition above.  I'm not interested in arguing about whether god exists or not.  It's a no win argument.  There obviously is no god remotely close to that described by today's Christians.  All these convoluted theories and apologetics are an utter waste of energy while we could be changing the world for the better.  As I said earlier, your unable to think critically about your beliefs. My focus is on Truth as described by Baidau.  Everything is ideological and created.  We must increase this awareness and work as the collective we are to bring about some of the liberation that is symbolized in the old myths.  It's hard work and it's scary as hell to hear the Truth.

Let’s clear up a few things -

Your reductive definition of what Christianity is about misses the mark. Christianity is about the redemption of mankind. The world was created in perfection; it will one day be restored to perfection. In the meantime it has been corrupted by evil. Jesus Christ came because God so loved…? What? The world. The greek word used is “cosmos” and it means the world. That redemptive plan does involve individuals. There is a role for the individual to play in that meta-narrative and it simple: believe. But the focus is on mankind.

You (and Infandous) mention myths, a book of myths and mythological beliefs. The Bible was assembled over hundreds of years by dozens of authors and yet is completely consistent in what it says. You can’t simply hand wave it away. When you say its fake you are suggesting that we are witnessing a 2000 year (and running) con job, and you have not one shred of proof to back that up.

You say you are not interested in arguing about whether god exists but will flat out say the Christian god does not exist and in your next post say its “astounding” to conclude religion is anything other than made up. You are all over the map. I can understand why you don’t want to argue the point: you have no sustainable argument. You cannot say an infinite being does not exist because you can’t know this, or you would be an infinite being. It’s self-defeating. This is why atheists have backed away from that claim and fallen back to arguing that theism does not offer sufficient proof and therefore must be rejected, or ascribe to an agnostic system.

Changing the world for the better? I agree this is where we should be focused. Christianity is based on LOVE. To say anything else is inaccurate. Any practical or experiential result that is different from what would occur from the outworking of love would be an illogical and erroneous application of Christianity (e.g. crusades). Christianity teaches love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. If we all put our focus there we could indeed accomplish much to change to the world for the better. I would add that NO group in history has done more to try to make the world a better place than Christians.

Contrast that to atheism. The outworking of atheism is no moral law, no meaning (except that which you ascribe to it yourself), no hope (except that which you infuse into yourself). We’ve seen the outworking of that world view in the 19th century, and all the bloodshed and atrocities committed by Hitler, Stalin.

Now, you’ve mentioned Baidau. I’ve never heard of it. You mention working as the collective and so forth and my apologies if I am in error but it sounds like a science fiction type cult to me. Perhaps it is borne out of eastern mysticism. You would have to elaborate. I will say that seeking Truth is noble, even if you are misguided in where you are looking.

As for Truth, I agree it can be scary. This is why every time and angel appears before someone in the Bible their first words are “be not afraid”. This is why when Moses was on Mt Sinai the people in the camp trembled. This is why when Isaiah sees the glory of God in the temple he thinks he is going to die immediately. When the apostles witness Jesus transfiguration they are terrified. I could go on.

Truth is not relative. King Crimson (yes! I’ve been discovering them having missed them completely while loving Yes, Floyd, Genesis) said it well in Epitaph “Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules”.

C'mon folks this is a Neal Morse Appreciation Thread.  This religion discussion is better left for the religion thread in the other part of the forum.     You all can argue for either side until you are blue in the face but no one will really ever know until your end of days comes and then you will be left to keep it a secret from the rest of us.

rushfan4 wrote: C'mon folks this is a Neal Morse Appreciation Thread.  This religion discussion is better left for the religion thread in the other part of the forum.

fair enough. I agree with you and I tried to say as much at the end of my last post.

I'm well aware I'm a newbie posting some heavy controversial stuff and I apologize to the mods and the community if I've derailed the thread.

I simply couldn't remain silent in the wake of the bashing.

Crumple,

You are deluded and cannot think critically. You made my point exactly. You argue from a premise of belief in God for the belief in God. It's a fatal arguement. You obviously have no education about the Bible outside of Sunday school and are unwilling to move beyond your tired arguments that stem from the old Scofield Bible from the late 19th century.   The stuff you're saying has been regurgitated for the last 200 years by every new inspirational writer from Scofield himself to William Lane Craig. And you lap it up, until you realize you've been duped. Bottom line, you either are unable or refuse to think. You're comfortable in you're delusion for now, but it probably won't last. Even your need to argue here indicates a crumbling. It'd be great to have a real critical look at how Morse's theology perpetuates delusion and suffering. When you're ready, I'll be here.

As a side note, Harris, Hitchens ect, while entertaining, are as deluded as anyone. They'll never find some sort neuro moral code. It's created ideology. We make morality, and the morality of our current economic system that your God seems to have no problem with, causes more suffering than we can fathom.

Edited by zumacraig - December 03 2013 at 14:54

I thought Shine was OK but I'm hoping that the rest of the album is a lot proggier. Putting that song out as a taster for the album would have been like Neal advertising Momentum with Smoke and Mirrors.

zumacraig wrote: Crumple, You are deluded and cannot think critically. You made my point exactly. You argue from a premise of belief in God for the belief in God. It's a fatal arguement. You obviously have no education about the Bible outside of Sunday school and are unwilling to move beyond your tired arguments that stem from the old Scofield Bible from the late 19th century.   The stuff you're saying has been regurgitated for the last 200 years by every new inspirational writer from Scofield himself to William Lane Craig. And you lap it up, until you realize you've been duped. Bottom line, you either are unable or refuse to think. You're comfortable in you're delusion for now, but it probably won't last. Even your need to argue here indicates a crumbling. It'd be great to have a real critical look at how Morse's theology perpetuates delusion and suffering. When you're ready, I'll be here. As a side note, Harris, Hitchens ect, while entertaining, are as deluded as anyone. They'll never find some sort neuro moral code. It's created ideology. We make morality, and the morality of our current economic system that your God seems to have no problem with, causes more suffering than we can fathom.

When will I realize I’ve been duped anyway? When I become enlightened by the teachings of Baidau and join the collective? When my synapses stop firing and I return to dust?

The stuff I’m saying has been regurgitated for a lot longer than 200 years. Over 2,000 years ago Paul of Tarsus said very similar things in a speech given in Athens. There is nothing new under the sun.

In response to your rants in this thread I’ve offered theism based on love, moral code, meaning, and hope. All you can say in response to that is “no”, and a vague reference to an obscure belief system and “Truth”.

It seems your fallback position is to label people lap dogs, deluded, infantile and unable to think critically etc. etc. That’s fine…but it ends the debate. Which is also fine.

If it’s appropriate to discuss in this thread and doesn’t alienate the other Morse fans feel free to explain how you think Morse’s theology perpetuates delusion and suffering. I’ll leave that up to you, since you’ve been around a lot longer in there forums. If not here…I believe a community type thread was mentioned.

As a side note to your side note, the idea that we make our own morality is, well, infantile. And My God has plenty of problems with the current system, which is precisely why he REDEEMED it.

Crumple wrote: zumacraig wrote: Your ideas about atheism are misinformed and infantile in themselves.  This is not an insult, it's what's you've written.  Read any intro anthropology book and you'll find that religion is absolutely man made and to come to any other conclusion is astounding.   Words like faith, proof, believe are so slippery here and to prove your god exists you have to keep coming up with more and more explanations of previous explanations.  You need to educate yourself on the atheist position and the responses to your claims before calling hubris.  In addition, read some intro philosophy in order to get yourself thinking rather than parroting all this hearsay your spouting.  You can't argue for the existence of GOD from the standpoint of belief in God.  This premise is fatal and becomes impossible to argue with when you get into the character of such God etc. I’ve already covered why the atheistic position is untenable and self-defeating. I don’t need to educate myself further or study more philosophy. I’ve studied Nietzche, Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Kai Neilson etc etc. The conclusion to all of it is no moral law, no meaning, no hope. And no proof. You must take it all on faith. What’s “astounding” is why anyone would do that when there are CLEARY better alternatives! It’s delusional. I don’t need to argue for the existence of God from the standpoint of belief in God, because Jesus Christ is a game changer. I can simply look at Him and it isn’t theoretical anymore, he walked among us, God became man, and he changed the world. He walked into the scene and declared that he IS God. A claim so audacious he was ultimately crucified for it. There is no more shocking event in the history of mankind than Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. There is no more to explain really, there is ample proof of his life and his claims. You can wave it away as a myth, or a con job, but, given the historical evidence of His resurrection from the dead, it is you not me that has the burden of proving His claims to be false. Not that I’m necessarily interested in debating that. This is a prog message board. Neal Morse thread. I suppose we can agree that we like Neal’s music. I posted what I did because I didn’t appreciate reading all your Christian bashing. What does Baidau teach you about respect?

If you have read Dawkins, then his books certainly DO NOT expound a world of no morality. He scientifically reports on the FACT! that all life are merely machines (Phenotypes) created over a long time by natural selection of specific successful gene's to transport those successful genes into the next generation. The fact that suffering is almost universal in the struggle for the gene transport does not mean that homo sapiens - with the largest and most sophisticated brain cannot make moral judgements because he doesn't believe in a sky fairy - you have just regurgitated the anti-atheist/pro-theist dogma that religious dicks always do - and you lose the argument because you mentioned the Nazis! The Nazi's anti-Semitism had it's roots in Christianity anyway if you read your theology properly.
RANT OVER!


Edited by M27Barney - December 04 2013 at 02:31

Crumple wrote: infandous wrote: Well said Zuma, thanks.  My only other point is that it doesn't take ANY faith to believe that man created God, and the proof is the Bible itself  and every other holy book......all conceived and written by human beings.  To believe that these were dictated by God is purely a faith driven perspective and has absolutely no proof behind it.  this is a nonsensical argument. As soon as you say you believe the bible is a made up book you have expressed faith, since you cannot know this. everybody has faith in something. everybody.

I studied the bible for years, and have a degree to prove it.  So yes, I CAN know this.  If you don't think it was written by fallible humans, and you also actually think it's consistent (???), then I don't really know what else to say.

Anyway, I apologize to the rest of the thread regulars.........I ignored my own advice to Zuma to not have these kinds of discussions on a music appreciation thread.  I will cease and desist from this moment on, and focus on the music only.


Edited by infandous - December 04 2013 at 08:52

Crumple wrote: AlexDOM wrote: Welcome Crumple. Pleasure to have you here. I totally agree with your arguments. I am Christian myself which is one reason I love Neal so much, prog meets the Light. But on to Neal, anyone watched Transatlantic's new music video for Shine? thanks! I have not seen the video...but I am VERY excited to check it out. I didn't know it came out. Are you seeing Transatlantic on the next tour? I've got VIP tix for the NYC show. Last show in 2010 they did all of Whirlwind plus Duel and Stranger and other stuff. I kind of would love to see that again, but they will have to drop something to work in the new album.

I would love to see them, but they are playing no where near I live :( I did see them on the Whirld 2010 Tour! Incredible!

 

M27Barney wrote:   If you have read Dawkins, then his books certainly DO NOT expound a world of no morality. He scientifically reports on the FACT! that all life are merely machines (Phenotypes) created over a long time by natural selection of specific successful gene's to transport those successful genes into the next generation. The fact that suffering is almost universal in the struggle for the gene transport does not mean that homo sapiens - with the largest and most sophisticated brain cannot make moral judgements because he doesn't believe in a sky fairy - you have just regurgitated the anti-atheist/pro-theist dogma that religious dicks always do - and you lose the argument because you mentioned the Nazis! The Nazi's anti-Semitism had it's roots in Christianity anyway if you read your theology properly. RANT OVER!

Edited by Crumple - December 17 2013 at 10:21