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The.Crimson.King 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
 Posted: October 23 2013 at 13:52 |
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Ah yes, the fence nail. Brings back fond memories of my "top of the line" Radio Shack turntable which eventually reduced the quality of my precious prog albums to that of a 12" vinyl frisbee
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 13:54 |
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Then we agree. I merely point out that sound placement from vinyl is no better than what we can decern and from a technical perspective cannot be better than can be achieved from CD.
Presactly. A point I've made many times over.
I don't believe it is possible to make any bad recording tolerable regardless of what media it was recorded on. If you gain pleasure from tinkering with tonearms and carts then good for you - once I've optimised my setups I find that no further twiddling will make a turd smell like a rose.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 14:02 |
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 yup - I had to replace my copies of Dark Side of the Moon, Tubular Bells and Seventh Wave's Things To Come when I bought my first "good" turntable. Edited by Dean - October 23 2013 at 14:03 |
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 23 2013 at 14:10 |
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I ripped through 3 copies of Brain Salad Surgery
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7867 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 07:08 |
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Key word here is 'claim.' myself, I have heard no such thing. With ya again here, Dennis. :) |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Near York UK Status: Offline Points: 7024 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 11:08 |
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Now that highlights the difference between us. You are an engineer, I am a scientist. Scientists use observation to gather information and my (and many other peoples') observations tell us that there is a difference in spatial resolution between vinyl and CDs. It may be that some people cannot perceive it, but that does not affect the situation - it has been observed and explanations must be sought as to why some people observe (or believe they observe) this phenomenon. And to suggest that it cannot exist because the specs don't support it is an engineer's approach which assumes that science is aware of every variable and how it can affect the perception of sound. Just because science cannot explain something does not mean it doesn't exist. For example, some years ago, a former colleague of mine measured the mass of a star (Eta Carinae if you want to know which one) and concluded that it was over 150 times the Sun's mass. This was a problem; there is an upper limit to star size called the Eddington luminosity limit which is around 125 - 140 times the mass of the Sun for a star like Eta Carinae. Above this limit, stars blow their outer layers off in a monstrous solar wind, so theoretically, a star this big can't exist. I spent 5 years trying to find a mechanism which would resolve this conundrum (without success) before Eta Carinae was found to be a binary system (two stars, not one). This seemed to solve the problem, but since then, other stars (eg R136a1) have been found which indisputably ARE above the Eddington limit. So science was saying they couldn't exist, yet they do. And since then, a mechanism has been proposed (not by me, I emphasise) which seems to permit them to. Conclusion: if science says something can't happen or doesn't exist, improve the science as much as you possibly can before finally passing judgement. |
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 11:32 |
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What you are talking about there is interpretation of data. With a star the information we gather is based upon the effect of the properties of the star on other things - we cannot physically measure its mass, we base our calculations on the measurements we obtain from the effect that mass has on some other measurable property. As your example shows - if the calculations do no stack up with the hypothesis then the hypothesis is wrong ... my inexpert guess would simply be that like the binary example, the star did not form as a single massive star, but as several smaller ones perhaps (as I said, I'm guessing - since stellar events generally happen over long timescales, we are probably observing this solar-wind mass-shedding as it happens - the stars merged, exceeded the Eddington limit and have been shedding mass ever since).
3D Sound-staging is not measurable so the hypothesis cannot be tested. That's not scientific. Edited by Dean - October 24 2013 at 12:30 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17973 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 11:42 |
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So much, if not all, of music and what is related to music is subjective...I hate to say 100% subjective because I am not a person that likes to feel all or nothing. But lets look at music, not everyone likes everyone elses music. Just this website proves that case. I don't like the Beatles, never have and own one album that my wife bought for me at an antique store, the blue album and I have spun it once...There has never been anything interesting to me about the Beatles. The history, popularity, sales volume, inspiration value, these Beatles science "specs" if you will point that I should like the Beatles..but I don't. As good as the populus says they are, I don't like them.
As good as digital specs say it is, as good as CD specs say it is......its not my prefered method of listening to music. If digital music went away it would have no bearing on my enjoyment of music, I would not miss it. Specifications in audio gear do not mean much to me, its subjective because its what your ears hear that counts, if it was all based on specs we would all own the "best" gear out there and not listen on computers, iPods, smartphones or earbuds....ya right!! Another subjective topic of loooooooong debate. So part of my point is that objective science says we should all be listening to the Beatles, Michael Jackson and Celine Dion as a huge portion of our music catalog.....but with our subjective music minds, I don't think many if not any of us do. Please enjoy your music however you want, on whatever gear you want...to me that is the key.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 12:40 |
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sheesh.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17973 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 16:59 |
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Exactly...the correlation that science or electronic specs dictate that one thing is better than the other is not always right. There are too many variables that create a different outcome. For whatever reason you want to cite...more and more people want a different sound than a digital sound. I have said before, more and more younger people, of the age that did not grow up in the LP era are going to vinyl.....In my miniscule world of vinyl stores each store owner says the same thing....The patrons are getting younger and more of them. Hey!! I don't like that because they are buying up stuff I want also . Almost every turntable mfg has seen double and triple digit growth and shipments in the last 5-10yrs, more and more audio mfg are expanding offerings in the vinyl gear end, more cartridges, phono amps and accessories. In todays digital world there can be only one reason for this....its in high demand. You can see more and more vinyl pressing plants that are busy, heck even WSJ has done article on some of this growth. Albums have gone from $20 to $30...used vinyl has gone from $2-3 to $8-10......Demand is the #1 driver for higher prices. Look I am pretty well fine with everything in this loooooooong thread, and the content is the same on any other music, hi-fi website on the internet, all the discussions are the same. They start the same and end the same.....some like this and some like that, there is no right or wrong answer, and yes there is a lot of mis information going on in all the threads. Music and how we listen to it is subjective....Happy trails!
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4596 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 17:15 |
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I guess I should have waited until 2013 to unload my vinyl instead of taking $0.50 an album in 1990
Edited by The.Crimson.King - October 24 2013 at 17:15 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 18:10 |
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 What? I seriously do not understand what you are talking about anymore. This is not "exactly" at all. It is not the point you were making. No objective science would ever say we should all listen to the Beatles, Michael Jackson and Celine Dion. There is no objectiveness in any of that, nor can there ever be.I repeat
sheesh.
Yet, we continue to agree, even if I don't "agree with" the arugment you put forward to agree with me...
No one is denying any of this. I am not interested in any of it. If people prefer wax cylinder over pianola rolls that's fine by me - good for them - whooop-di-flipping-do. I've said before in this thread I own a lot of vinyl, I even still buy vinyl, and like you I also buy CDs by the bucket load - what my subjective preferences are is irrelevant and frankly, meaningless. Stating that analogue is having a revival is irrelevant to everything I have written in this thread, stating that digital is better than analogue or analogue is better than digital is also irrelevant to everything I have ever written in this thread.
However, as you say there is a lot of mis-information going on in all the threads: people make unsubstantiated objective claims about one technology over another in "defence" of their subjective preference choices and that is wrong. That is all I address here. Someone makes a bold objective claim that is unsubstantiated and I will ask questions and offer likely explanations. It just happens that there have been many more "opinion as fact" claims made for analogue than digital.
Listening to music is subjective, we all agree on that (don't we?) - the equipment and technology we use to do that is not: a particular sound either comes out of the left speaker channel or it does not - there is nothing subjective about that; a spectral response is flat or it isn't - there is nothing subjective about that; a recording medium can record a 120dB dynamic range or it cannot - there is nothing subjective about that... etc. etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ab initio, ab aeterno. My stick-shift V6 Tiburon is faster than my vintage Holdsworth racing bicycle - a bold claim but one I'm sure most would agree with, but if I give my bike to Bradley Wiggins and my car keys to my 82 yearold arthritic Mother-in-law guess who gets to the shops first - the observed subjective claim would be that the bike is faster - even though the specifiations say otherwise. When we blur the line between objective and subjective we are being disingenuous and that's not good - objectively if System A is equal to System B but subjectively I prefer System B - that does not make System B better than System A.
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Near York UK Status: Offline Points: 7024 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 18:34 |
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[QUOTE=Dean]
What you are talking about there is interpretation of data. With a star the information we gather is based upon the effect of the properties of the star on other things - we cannot physically measure its mass, we base our calculations on the measurements we obtain from the effect that mass has on some other measurable property. QUOTE] Not so. You can measure the mass of a star by using the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram based on its spectral class and luminosity, not by its mass effect on anything. And you are probably correct in that the stars have achieved their high mass by stellar mergers, but the classical model said that they should then either rapidly disintegrate as a pair instability supernova if of low metallicity or a core collapse hypernova if not. The fact that some have done neither and have survived for a considerable time required a new model. And yes, some have probably shed 20% of their initial mass - but they should not have been around long enough to do this, You say you can't "measure" soundstaging - but my ears can observe it even if they can't record it. The fact that we can't explain the difference between my (and others) perception of vinyl and CDs is perfectly acceptable evidence to deduce that we don't fully understand the physics of sound reproduction and sound perception. |
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 24 2013 at 19:32 |
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I presumed that spectral class & luminosity was an effect of the property of mass on how fusion occurs. We are measuring two properties - colour temperature and brightness - that are a function of the mass, we are not measuring the mass directly (except in the constellation of Libra of course
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I made a quick "engineering" guess extrapolated from the information you provided in your example - I don't know how quickly these things occur on a cosmological timescale, or whether there is a tipping-point for instability when two or more stars merge, or when the distinction between a binary pair and a merged pair is made, or some other factor I've not thought of (erm.. magnetic field interaction affecting the orbits?). However, this is a digression, albeit a very interesting one (for me).
The point is two different sets of isolated observers will interpret it differently and so it lacks repeatability. In your star mass example two different observers will agree and so the observations will be repeatable, which is reason enough to suspect the model is in need of refinement - that is how science works is it not.
We understand the physics of sound reproduction and perception well enough - sound-bars and other pseudo-surround sound systems use this science to recreate a localised 3D image from a 2D source even if the level of processing required is pretty heavy and not always satisfactory - in most systems if you move out of the sweet-spot the illusion is lost. As you noted early on in this little exchange - it is the illusion of a 3D soundstage that is being (re)produced in a stereo image. I think we can (and have) explained the differences in perception sufficiently since perception, by definition, is a neurological interpretation rather than a purely acoustic phenomenon. Edited by Dean - October 24 2013 at 19:33 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17973 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 02:43 |
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Yes listening to music is subjective..I said that already no need for the ? mark  . We have a 70yr old arthritic (in both hands) female friend of the family, retired math teacher. She quilts, needle points (by hand) some of the most amazing blankets and throws I have ever seen.I bet your mother-in-law would win....
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 25 2013 at 03:48 |
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The question was rhetorical (was it not?) In stating that rhetorically I was agreeing with you so there is no point in agreeing with me agreeing with you.
Let's see how she gets on in 12 years time. My mother-in-law cannot drive stick and in the time it would take her to get into my coupé Wiggo would be queuing at the check-out to pay, you would lose your bet.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 30 2013 at 04:55 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: October 30 2013 at 05:05 |
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Wow talk about devotion!!! Makes me feel rather content and happy about my Ipod tbh  I used to carry around a big ruck-sag every time I had to leave the house. I filled it up with cds engulfed in some towels in order to offer up some protection for them. Good times, but also very unhandy times - and remember this was a digital media. This is probably why I've had to re-purchase so many of my cds. I'm currently on my 5th Dark Side Of The Moon. Anyway, I suspect this bloke'll run into some of the same problems as I did - especially if he plans on attending parties with his little sonic set-up
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 30 2013 at 07:31 |
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I like the body language between the bloke and the girl, who is clearly more interested in her ale than his album collection.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: October 30 2013 at 07:42 |
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Now that you mention it, they do appear to be a couple - only not really
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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the importance of analog sound in prog
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progbethyname wrote:
