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dr wu23 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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 Posted: October 02 2013 at 11:21 |
 rogerthat wrote:
Please enlighten me, what is the Democratic objection to the Republican proposal for partial funding. |
I don't know which aspects they want 'partially' funded.....and what that would mean for the ACA overall.
But more to the point is that their ideological position is causing the shutdown when the Act has already been passed and decided upon. The polls have shown that the majority of Americans are for health care reform and the ACA (not that it doesn't have problems) yet the Republicans are so far to the right, at least the vocal ones, that they are simply being ridiculous on pure ideological grounds and have no solution to the health care problems in the US.
The costs will go up whether or not the ACA comes into play because the insurance co's and the medical business orgs (who the Republicans support since they are all about money and the 'free market') want to make bucket loads of money and in the end don't give a sh*te about the people and if they can afford these rising costs.
We need health care reform and the GOP simply aren't interested in changing anything because they like the present form of medical capitalism which supports their cronies.
I would be willing to temporarily delay the ACA if the GOP had any meaningful ideas on how to solve the health care crisis. They don't. In the meantime we the people are paying for their (both dems and gop) health care, even though many in the US have none , and their payroll which they have not suspended even thought the govt is 'shutdown'.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: October 02 2013 at 12:26 |
dr wu23 wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Please enlighten me, what is the Democratic objection to the Republican proposal for partial funding. |
I don't know which aspects they want 'partially' funded.....and what that would mean for the ACA overall.
But more to the point is that their ideological position is causing the shutdown when the Act has already been passed and decided upon. The polls have shown that the majority of Americans are for health care reform and the ACA (not that it doesn't have problems) yet the Republicans are so far to the right, at least the vocal ones, that they are simply being ridiculous on pure ideological grounds and have no solution to the health care problems in the US.
The costs will go up whether or not the ACA comes into play because the insurance co's and the medical business orgs (who the Republicans support since they are all about money and the 'free market') want to make bucket loads of money and in the end don't give a sh*te about the people and if they can afford these rising costs.
We need health care reform and the GOP simply aren't interested in changing anything because they like the present form of medical capitalism which supports their cronies.
I would be willing to temporarily delay the ACA if the GOP had any meaningful ideas on how to solve the health care crisis. They don't. In the meantime we the people are paying for their (both dems and gop) health care, even though many in the US have none , and their payroll which they have not suspended even thought the govt is 'shutdown'.
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I don't understand. Costs will go up regardless of the ACA? Then what exactly will be making healthcare affordable? 
"The other team hasn't come up with anything else" isn't exactly a good enough justification for the ACA.
Bonus question: How are Republicans in favor of the free market if they support laws that interfere with the market?
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: October 02 2013 at 12:31 |
I've got a question: does a free market imply that not everyone will be able to participate in that market?
What I'm getting at is: if health care is a free market, do we concede that some people will be priced out and not able to afford the service?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: October 02 2013 at 13:04 |
Padraic wrote:
I've got a question: does a free market imply that not everyone will be able to participate in that market?
What I'm getting at is: if health care is a free market, do we concede that some people will be priced out and not able to afford the service? |
That's always a possibility.
The specific question regarding health care is, "Would expenses for the medical industry decrease to the point that doctors would be freer to institute their own policies for serving the unfortunate (means testing, for example)?"
I needed an automotive repair and couldn't afford it. My mechanic decreased my bill and offered to let me pay installments. Fortunately, the reduction made it so that I could pay in full.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 12:08 |
Padraic wrote:
I've got a question: does a free market imply that not everyone will be able to participate in that market?
What I'm getting at is: if health care is a free market, do we concede that some people will be priced out and not able to afford the service? |
Yes
To their credit, most libertarians don't seem to deny this at all, but counter with "charity" either people lowering prices, or just providing for free, or some real harsh folk just say "well it is what it is"
It ALL comes back to that infamous question:
Is healthcare a right or not?
Should it be a good like most others in a market? Or is healthcare something all are entitled too, at least to a minimal extent?
Then of course is execution! HOW to implement a healthcare reform? As it's known I think ACA does it in about the worst way possible, but that's how politics in the US works. We really gotta get healthcare out of employers hands. If one wants it thus provided by markets or government, debate that but our current mess is the worst way.
We also need to get the health market freed up, it's super monopolistic and patchwork-y. How we can change this IDK. IF gov is to help pay for healthcare it makes sense to me we need to force competition if need be, can't have the third party helping to pay for a monopolistic service, aka what we currently do!
What makes this all really hard is healthcare seems to be naturally inflationary, and technological advancements increases costs even more. How would a true market health system operate and would it work like other markets? No god damn clue 
Edited by JJLehto - October 03 2013 at 12:10
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:01 |
Padraic wrote:
I've got a question: does a free market imply that not everyone will be able to participate in that market? |
No. I mean, if it did, then the whole theory would fall apart. One of the major functions of the price system is to ration limited goods. By definition that pretty much means pricing people out. That's bad of course to some extent. It's very bad when talking about health care. But of course pricing out needs to occur in some form. It's just less direct under other systems. This isn't supposed to be a problem since it's an economic system and not a moral system, or prescription for living life, or anything at all except the ambient space that economic activity is to take place within. Unfortunately, people forget this or ignore this.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:03 |
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..or just don't want it.
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What?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:12 |
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Did antecedents switch there? I'm confused.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:21 |
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I guess that depends on why they forget or ignore that the free market is just an economic activity, or whether they are aware that is precisely all it is.
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What?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:25 |
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Depends of course. Some people equate it with a moral code to attack the capitalism through the moral facsimile. Others do it to try to validate their own rather selfish moral codes with a "science" backing it. Some people just don't think about these things.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:27 |
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True. And some see it as a general panacea for all ills, which of course no system can never be.
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What?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:29 |
Agreed with Dean, if get what he means.
It's like how we always hear people yelling "free markets just dont work!!!!" or "the markets do work!"
Most either don't realize, or don't want to accept, that markets do work, always, and as advertised....thing is it may not work to results people want.
Basically, as you said with healthcare applies to "the market" in general.
Do we accept the markets working for what it is, or demand some type of action is taken to "fix it" or "aid us"? Guess that is what makes on libertarian or not, in a nut shell.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:32 |
Dean wrote:
True. And some see it as a general panacea for all ills, which of course no system can never be. |
Unfortunately, yes. People like to think the world will become a paradise if they can just get the right economic system in place and then sit on their ass as things improve.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:48 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 15:56 |
I just think that health care is an exception. A very special exception. I don't think it is a right of the individual, I think it is a prerequisite of humanity. Excluding the weak and the old from the tribe is something we should have moved beyond in the 21st century. We have replaced the physical burden of care with the economic burden of care, but the end result is the same. Life is the passage from birth to death with health as simply the slowest way of dying and health care is the art of dying with dignity and without unnecessary discomfort, even for the healthiest of us. Health care costs money, this is a fact of life and that makes it economic, that cannot be avoided, but is not what health care is. As average life expectancy approaches the biblical three-score years and ten that economic burden can do nothing but increase, yet we still measure it as a commodity like a pound of potatoes or a gallon of gas - as something to sacrifice to balance a budget or reduce a tax bill. All analogies are specious, there are no parallels or smart metaphors to health care, it is the care of human life and nothing is comparable to that.
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What?
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 16:00 |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 16:55 |
Dean wrote:
I just think that health care is an exception. A very special exception. I don't think it is a right of the individual, I think it is a prerequisite of humanity. Excluding the weak and the old from the tribe is something we should have moved beyond in the 21st century. We have replaced the physical burden of care with the economic burden of care, but the end result is the same. Life is the passage from birth to death with health as simply the slowest way of dying and health care is the art of dying with dignity and without unnecessary discomfort, even for the healthiest of us. Health care costs money, this is a fact of life and that makes it economic, that cannot be avoided, but is not what health care is. As average life expectancy approaches the biblical three-score years and ten that economic burden can do nothing but increase, yet we still measure it as a commodity like a pound of potatoes or a gallon of gas - as something to sacrifice to balance a budget or reduce a tax bill. All analogies are specious, there are no parallels or smart metaphors to health care, it is the care of human life and nothing is comparable to that.
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Now if we could only get these idjit politicians in the USA to understand this.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 16:58 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Dean wrote:
True. And some see it as a general panacea for all ills, which of course no system can never be. |
Unfortunately, yes. People like to think the world will become a paradise if they can just get the right economic system in place and then sit on their ass as things improve.
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You wont promise me utopia? f**k you! Anarcho communism communal individualism is clearly the way to go then Yes, well said Dean. It can't be just a numbers and $$ thing, there are real and severe impacts. I mean, people die here in the US because of it. Not having insurance causes preventable deaths, every year. Over half of bankruptcies in the US involve medical cost, how can a family go bankrupt over something like an illness they have no control over? Especially for that American exceptionalism crap we all go on about...pretty sad we spend more than any other country on care, use it less, see at best the same results and thousands die needlessly because of it.
Edited by JJLehto - October 03 2013 at 17:02
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 18:06 |
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Many people in America (including professional journalists) are saying people can "sign up for Obamacare" or "get on Obamacare." "Obamacare" is a nickname for a law. You don't sign up for a law.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17168
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Posted: October 03 2013 at 18:12 |
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Single payer. Let's just get it over with.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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