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HemispheresOfXanadu View Drop Down
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Points: 4339 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 14:25
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:


But they still played something.  That's just a software equivalent of a pedal.
Welp, I'm out of examples then, LOL
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Points: 460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 14:59
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by schizoidman schizoidman wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times now: bands that use these mending tools to rise above their own talent, yet there's been no mentioning of who in fact does this - no example. My interest is piqued now. Who are these critters? Instead of beating around the bush with all these accusations (may sound like a harsh word here, but I gather the bands out there will feel exactly like that), then let's name a few, or maybe just one. I'm curiousBig smile
 
I would think that information would be something that the artist would very much want to keep in the studio as in "What happens in  the studio stays in the studio."
 
I've done a lot of reading on the Beatles recording sessions and techniques. Really can't think of a worse example than them as there aren't many other groups with the wealth of singing and writing talent that they had. That being said....
 
Early Beatles songs were pretty much what you here is what was really played live and recorded and released.
 
Later songs were completed by whichever way John, Paul or George, along with George Martin, thought was best, be it splicing two or more different takes to create one master recording ("Strawberry Fields Forever"), dropping a taped guitar part into a song instead of having to replay the part again (the guitar riff in "Taxman"), speeding up the vocal (certain early versions of "Across the Universe"), backwards guitar ("I'm Only Sleeping"), cut up tape respliced together (the organ outro for "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite") and, of course, Revolution #9 which is a collage of various recordings edited to form the one singular piece.


Personally I think The Beatles reference is a poor example of this tbh. Sorry, but the examples you mention are by many considered as some of the earliest attempts at mixing things up in the studio to create something new and unorthodox. If anything it shows The Beatles at their most "progressive". I don't think it was done due to the lack of talent, but more because it could be done and moreover to see what came out at the other end. This was all about achieving something unique that hadn't been done before. The accusations flung in this thread (among many threads actually) are that pro tools and other such electronic gimmicks make up for lack of chops - not because these devices are put to use in order to attain something stylistically fresh and original.
 
Oh, I agree with you. The Beatles are the worst example. They were a fantastic group with a wealth of talent and ideas, but how many other groups have come clean, like the Beatles, on exactly what went on in their studio sessions?
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 15:11
^I don't know, and I'm not sure many of us do, which is why I think it's preposterous to make such claims, if one hasn't got any proof to back them up with. All this amounts to are unfounded generalisations based on what some people think they hear or know, which is far from being fair imho. If people know of certain instances where these electronic tools stand in for lack of talent, then name em or simply abstain from making empty accusations that are downright disrespectful to the current scene.
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Points: 460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 15:39
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

^I don't know, and I'm not sure many of us do, which is why I think it's preposterous to make such claims, if one hasn't got any proof to back them up with. All this amounts to are unfounded generalisations based on what some people think they hear or know, which is far from being fair imho. If people know of certain instances where these electronic tools stand in for lack of talent, then name em or simply abstain from making empty accusations that are downright disrespectful to the current scene.
 
I think a group that needs to use studio computer trickery will be found out quite quickly as soon as they step on a stage.
 
Now, I'm somewhat of the mind that in music the end sometimes justifies the means. For example, Imogen Heap (she's not prog but is still a very, very good talent imho). She has a great voice, writes great tunes, but takes the stage with just herself and her computer. At least, she did for her early tours a few years ago.
 
The second Steve Winwood album "Arc of a Diver" was 100% Winwood on everthing. As was his next album....whose name escapes me at the moment.......Confused
 
The first McCartney solo album was all him except for his wife's harmony vocals.
 
So, sure. Technology can be great when used wisely. If it isn't then nobody would buy it anyway.
 
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Edited by schizoidman - October 02 2013 at 15:41
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 16:19
People who doubt the current usage of electronics/computers and how they're incorporated into the mix, should definitely check out this concert with Cabezas de Cera. On here there's not a 'mending tool' in sight, but countless of modern erm...instruments(?) that I don't understand. The "reed" player has this electronic pseudo sax that spurts out incredible sounds. Then there's the drummer/percussionists who plays around with all kinds of different pads and electronic trickery that I, again, don't have the slightest clue what are. 
This performance should preferably also put to shame the folks who are claiming the modern scene to be bereft of musical enlightenment and skills:


And in keeping with the op - this just might turn out to be pretty inaccessible to someTongue Still mindblowingly brilliant imo. 
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Points: 12794 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 16:34
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times now: bands that use these mending tools to rise above their own talent, yet there's been no mentioning of who in fact does this - no example. My interest is piqued now. Who are these critters? Instead of beating around the bush with all these accusations (may sound like a harsh word here, but I gather the bands out there will feel exactly like that), then let's name a few, or maybe just one. I'm curiousBig smile
Me (see signature) Big smile
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 18:32
Decibel, Mexican group
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Points: 460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2013 at 22:51
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:


People who doubt the current usage of electronics/computers and how they're incorporated into the mix, should definitely check out this concert with Cabezas de Cera. On here there's not a 'mending tool' in sight, but countless of modern erm...instruments(?) that I don't understand. The "reed" player has this electronic pseudo sax that spurts out incredible sounds. Then there's the drummer/percussionists who plays around with all kinds of different pads and electronic trickery that I, again, don't have the slightest clue what are. 
This performance should preferably also put to shame the folks who are claiming the modern scene to be bereft of musical enlightenment and skills:
And in keeping with the op - this just might turn out to be pretty inaccessible to someTongue Still mindblowingly brilliant imo. 



Not bad. They can play. I watched most of the video. Seemed about 80% improvisation, 20% structure. I like more structure. Quite good though.

These guys are pretty inaccessible. Behold...the Arctopus. These guys are 100% structured. It's all written out and then rehearsed.



Behold...the Arctopus PA page

Edited by schizoidman - October 02 2013 at 22:58
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Points: 462 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2013 at 07:38
To me it comes down to The Song. What I love about Prog in all it's forms is the calibre of musicianship yes, but rolled into playing for The Song. Prog, generally offers a higher understanding of musical form by the composer. This excites and inspires me. That said the stuff that does nothing for me as a listener is:
Shred Fest unison playing, time changing every 32 to 64 bars, in a poorly written structure that simply becomes monotonous. Alot of Prog Metal, but not all, leaves me feeling flat. The worst offender to my ears has always been and continues to be - maybe even worse now -   Dream Theater. I continue to offer them my ears and they continue to leave me flat. They do however have excellent musicians, they just can't write for The Song.
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Points: 20645 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2013 at 16:25
Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

To me it comes down to The Song. What I love about Prog in all it's forms is the calibre of musicianship yes, but rolled into playing for The Song. Prog, generally offers a higher understanding of musical form by the composer. This excites and inspires me. That said the stuff that does nothing for me as a listener is:
Shred Fest unison playing, time changing every 32 to 64 bars, in a poorly written structure that simply becomes monotonous. Alot of Prog Metal, but not all, leaves me feeling flat. The worst offender to my ears has always been and continues to be - maybe even worse now -   Dream Theater. I continue to offer them my ears and they continue to leave me flat. They do however have excellent musicians, they just can't write for The Song.
 
We are on the same page here....... I have always had a problem getting into 'prog  metal' and the even heavier versions of that. It's not inaccessible to me but it doesn't move me.
I suppose much of the extreme metal/tech metal/math rock stuff  is 'inaccessible' to me.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2013 at 19:14
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

To me it comes down to The Song. What I love about Prog in all it's forms is the calibre of musicianship yes, but rolled into playing for The Song. Prog, generally offers a higher understanding of musical form by the composer. This excites and inspires me. That said the stuff that does nothing for me as a listener is:
Shred Fest unison playing, time changing every 32 to 64 bars, in a poorly written structure that simply becomes monotonous. Alot of Prog Metal, but not all, leaves me feeling flat. The worst offender to my ears has always been and continues to be - maybe even worse now -   Dream Theater. I continue to offer them my ears and they continue to leave me flat. They do however have excellent musicians, they just can't write for The Song.
 
We are on the same page here....... I have always had a problem getting into 'prog  metal' and the even heavier versions of that. It's not inaccessible to me but it doesn't move me.
I suppose much of the extreme metal/tech metal/math rock stuff  is 'inaccessible' to me.
That's probably why I can't get into jazz.
What?
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Points: 1759 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2013 at 13:23
Some electronic prog music that sounds quite out-dated (including Tangerine Dream and things, as it's much easier to create those sort of sounds in the studio today). I can appreciate most of it though

Also Zeuhl and Progressive Death Metal. For instance I like some parts of Magma but really hate other parts and I love some Opeth parts, especially from Still Life, but get turned off by some of the growling. Also, some Mike Oldfield songs like Hergest Ridge that I find I get bored of quite soon
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Points: 25 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2013 at 17:47
I find quite a lot of Yes annoying - the crass lyrics and random tempo changes, the unnecessarily elaborate guitar and the over  complicated drumming. 

In a typical track - most of which i loved when i was in my teens or early 20s - theres about 7 minutes of guff as they make their disassociated way (each playing their own instruments without due regard to what anyone else is doing) through some impenetrable undergrowth towards the edge of some virtual forest. When they eventually reach the edge there may be 2 minutes of bliss as the music soars revealing the magnificent landscape beyond...only fall back to Earth again as they make their way through another impenetrable forest of pretentiousness. 


Edited by Dragontrouser - October 06 2013 at 17:53
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Points: 2466 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2013 at 17:55
Originally posted by Dragontrouser Dragontrouser wrote:

I find quite a lot of Yes annoying - the crass lyrics and random tempo changes, the unnecessarily elaborate guitar and the over  complicated drumming. 

In a typical track - most of which i loved when i was in my teens or early 20s - theres about 7 minutes of guff as they make their disassociated way (each playing their own instruments without due regard to what anyone else is doing) through some impenetrable undergrowth towards the edge of some virtual forest. When they eventually reach the edge there may be 2 minutes of bliss as the music soars revealing the magnificent landscape beyond...only fall back to Earth again as they make their way through another impenetrable forest of pretentiousness. 


hey u sthu!!
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Points: 179 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 10:55
The Mars Volta are a unique group for me, they are the only band I have discovered that can give me a full blown migraine when I listen to them

Don't get me wrong, they are technically super talented and their lyrics are super strange (always a positive in prog) and I can easily understand why people love them, but for me the high pitch singling/screeching along with the constantly loud and piercing music makes my ears bleed. It takes an iron will for me to listen to one of their songs from start to end and a whole album from them would just finish me off.   
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Points: 4339 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2013 at 11:22
Originally posted by LakeGlade12 LakeGlade12 wrote:

The Mars Volta are a unique group for me, they are the only band I have discovered that can give me a full blown migraine when I listen to them

Don't get me wrong, they are technically super talented and their lyrics are super strange (always a positive in prog) and I can easily understand why people love them, but for me the high pitch singling/screeching along with the constantly loud and piercing music makes my ears bleed. It takes an iron will for me to listen to one of their songs from start to end and a whole album from them would just finish me off.   
There's always Miranda, That Ghost Just Isn't Holy Anymore. Cedric sings fairly low in that one. Wink

I can only listen to their first album myself. After that I'm not sure what's going on 90% of the time.
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Points: 7859 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 09 2013 at 08:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

To me it comes down to The Song. What I love about Prog in all it's forms is the calibre of musicianship yes, but rolled into playing for The Song. Prog, generally offers a higher understanding of musical form by the composer. This excites and inspires me. That said the stuff that does nothing for me as a listener is:

Shred Fest unison playing, time changing every 32 to 64 bars, in a poorly written structure that simply becomes monotonous. Alot of Prog Metal, but not all, leaves me feeling flat. The worst offender to my ears has always been and continues to be - maybe even worse now -   Dream Theater. I continue to offer them my ears and they continue to leave me flat. They do however have excellent musicians, they just can't write for The Song.



 

We are on the same page here....... I have always had a problem getting into 'prog  metal' and the even heavier versions of that. It's not inaccessible to me but it doesn't move me.

I suppose much of the extreme metal/tech metal/math rock stuff  is 'inaccessible' to me.

That's probably why I can't get into jazz.


Jazz. The epitome of musical masturbation. You can count me out for a cup of 'Bitches Brew' by Miles Davis. I respect his work, but I just can't get into it. It's frustrating.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2013 at 07:58
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Is this really "most inaccessible" or "music I hate"?
LOL LOL
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2013 at 08:11
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by deafmoon deafmoon wrote:

To me it comes down to The Song. What I love about Prog in all it's forms is the calibre of musicianship yes, but rolled into playing for The Song. Prog, generally offers a higher understanding of musical form by the composer. This excites and inspires me. That said the stuff that does nothing for me as a listener is:

Shred Fest unison playing, time changing every 32 to 64 bars, in a poorly written structure that simply becomes monotonous. Alot of Prog Metal, but not all, leaves me feeling flat. The worst offender to my ears has always been and continues to be - maybe even worse now -   Dream Theater. I continue to offer them my ears and they continue to leave me flat. They do however have excellent musicians, they just can't write for The Song.



 

We are on the same page here....... I have always had a problem getting into 'prog  metal' and the even heavier versions of that. It's not inaccessible to me but it doesn't move me.

I suppose much of the extreme metal/tech metal/math rock stuff  is 'inaccessible' to me.

That's probably why I can't get into jazz.


Jazz. The epitome of musical masturbation. You can count me out for a cup of 'Bitches Brew' by Miles Davis. I respect his work, but I just can't get into it. It's frustrating.
I totally understand how you feel. And get this..I'm a huge Miles Davis fan...???...But..seriously , I totally understand your reaction and would never expect anyone who sits in the same room with me to like his music. There might be something very different regarding what I DO see in his music. Something that other people do not notice and even if they did, would not care? And....I think that may be a "drone tone" , "spaced out" sound I get from him. Instead of playing typical standard sounding Progressive Jazz, Miles Davis was more experimental and Bitches Brew gives me the creeps on a cold night. But ..on a regular day to day week, it comes across as musical masturbation.
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Points: 63 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2013 at 17:50
Oh God, it has to be ALL of those Marillion clones. There must be thousands.
I'm sick and tired of the same old Neo-Bore, erupting each year like pimples on Fish's hairy butt.

Please God, deliver us from evil.

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