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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Posted: August 20 2013 at 10:09 |
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Indeed. I completely get that govt is inefficient but I don't get what eliminating govt is supposed to achieve if the problem is the people running it. In other words, I don't think there is anything theoretically remiss with the idea of a govt. What disrupts their functioning is all the corruption, lobbying, vested interests, etc. I see no reason why this would not persist in a non governmental world...unless everyone in the world were libertarians believing in "no harm and no hurt". Which, needless to say, would be as idealistic as expecting central planning to work for a large economy.
Edited by rogerthat - August 20 2013 at 10:09 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 11:02 |
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Yes, Geoff it did help. At least I have a general idea.
Because I just want to know, again we are not public policy makers so I like to hear, and express myself, our actual views. That's why the internet is great.
Obviously in reality there must be compromises. Like the Fed, I don't like it, but I know it's not going anywhere ever, so if in this case I'd rather have its role limited, and put under oversight. In fact in a limited role I can actually support the institution since it could have some benefit. (see Geoff? that line right there has automatically got me booted out of the libertarian club
 ) It always ends up about the $$ and for obvious reasons, but there are many other areas where I'm libertarian (or liberal socially what the hell ever) like the war on drugs, gay rights, privacy (which neither party respects) and libertarians are the only people who seem to espouse an actually good foreign policy.
Speaking of which: OK, I'll grant you, the Dems are indeed better than republicans with foreign policy but again why do you HAVE to play that game? I know GOP is satans a****le but really I no longer accept a the better piece of crap of 2. That is what gets us into so much of our problems...
In terms of rights/liberties I will NOT grant you that one. Both are equally as awful. Sorry, youre biased but that one is obvious. Most progressives agree.
And we are the "crazy idealists" dont ya like it?
The progressive dream is a large, very active government but despite the fact almost all accept gov is prone to corruption and a tool for rich and powerful, somehow more of it will be fine. They always say "well ours sucks, we need the RIGHT people in gov" because that's possible....to get a huge amount of the right people into politics.
The way some progressives talk, seems like their ideal is a technocratic dictatorship, but again good luck with that AND this assumes they are all incorruptible. But no we're crazy and idealist Edited by JJLehto - August 20 2013 at 11:23 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 11:14 |
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Oh and no Geoff, I've not heard about that and I'll leave it to Rob. He's more knowledgable and frankly if I express bluntly my views on religion and all I'll be banned from the site
Though your views actually help prove an idea Ive had so thanks for that
Yeah, governemnt is use of force, by nature. We all compete to use that force to better us. It's not even ideological, just fact, so it seems obvious that the rich and powerful will be best able to use government and history proves this. Even the liberal gods like FDR, much of his new deal was kinda corporatist, and supposedly many (not all) business leaders were really OK with it and wanted to push even farther.
But nah, more of it is fine! Remember, it's about the right people in charge. Those magical people that are incorruptible, geniuses and of course agree with what you say
 Look I do admit, markets are "harsh" and while it does force companies to compete, the process of may be negative for workers. And it is kind of foolish for libertarians to continue these ideas of "vote with our wallet" and businesses ever doing anything besides for profit. It's just not reality. But hey, here's another radical idealist notion.....life is not fair, we can't make it so, we cant end greed. We cant have utopia and call it crazy but Ill take a less than ideal market world over one with use of force, where politicians are basically bribed.
For example the post office generally IS fine, I really have no issues with it. But still, why have it propped up by monopoly? There's just no reason. Edited by JJLehto - August 20 2013 at 11:20 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 11:17 |
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Basically Geoff, you realize our politicians are basically businessmen?
They are, they are there to do what is best for them. And us regular working folk, well it's damn hard for us to sway them where it counts, but a big business? Well they can throw mountains of $ at them! This is why, by nature, politicians are corrupt and in the pants of rich and business, they provide them the profit!
And being so distrustful of businessmen, and hateful of greed (which I get) you really think we can get a system where politicians act "right"? Especially since you play they whole, we have to be realist and deal with what we have card. That's all I got really, what you say does not translate into real life, and if we get more government maybe maybe we can get scraps of help...but we all know where all the $$ and power is going.
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 17:05 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 17:44 |
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None of that is a critique of Libertarian principles in the least. A "sorta-free market" is not the same thing as a "free market," and you may not use the results of the former to judge the latter. You will anyway though.
Is saving lives your business? Or is it making money? By the way, I searched for a source for this statement that was "reportedly" uttered. I cannot find one. |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 18:10 |
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There goes your stupid "all or nothing" rhetoric again. You expect us to give you total anarchy before we'll see your "wisdom". I must insist you be able to prove your principles work on a smaller scale, however. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
Posted: August 20 2013 at 18:11 |
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Hardly seems fair. You've had the past 100 years to prove yours.  |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 06:49 |
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Wait, so your argument is that, because government price controls resulted in a bad outcome, government price controls are... good? |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 08:08 |
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Wait, so your argument is that, because the government said: "I'm sorry, our people simply cannot afford to pay X dollars. Their life depends on this drug. Life is more important, therefore you are only allowed to charge Y dollars." And the company replied: "F you." That Libertarianism and the Free Market are GOOD?!!!! |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 09:09 |
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That is the point being made, even if you disagree with free markets, we dont really have them.
When Rob pointed this out you flew off the handle, but you do the exact same thing. All liberals do.
It could be said, wow gov intervention really hasnt worked in many aspects and the usual retort is: We havnt spent enough/havnt done enough/gov is being used incorrectly/its corrupt we need a gov that actually acts in good interest.
The big gov folk use what they WANT all the time, as opposed to reality. Apparently only they are entitled to do so.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 09:27 |
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Anyway as for that article, couldnt it also be said that the government has prevented the bad guys from failing?
That article is either the most biased thing ever or written by an idiot, or both.
The bailouts. The gov bailed out all the irresponsible and bad banks, well except one.
So blame the markets??? Blame the "false idea" that "losers will fail" even though, they were bailed out??
I mean, sorry but you are ridiculous. I get 100000% you disagree, thats great but your points and sources make zero sense.
Its criticizing the failure of the markets to punish misbehaving companies but they were BAILED OUT by the GOVERNMENT. Literally this cant be denied. In fact the argument was if we let them fail (aka BE PUNISHED) itd send us into the next Great Depression. So yeah, the markets do punish, and we no longer want that to happen...its admitted openly. What a crock of sh*t that was.
Edit: also what ideal world does that author live in? Implying business used to be "good" but now are purely about profit. Uh.....hasnt the point of business ALWAYS been to maximize profit? The "bad days" of the 19th century and robber barrons and etc? Ill admit IDK much about but when the hell were these companies with "specific obligations" that once met would disband? History? This author is inventing their own!
I wont go into the healthcare thing since as Ive said I see the need for some kind of universal insurance but seriously, let the rich have their way and the "rest of us" will rely on governemnt to look out for our best interests"
Well....I grew up in a middle class family, not 1% not 5% not even top 10. Both my parents have always worked, we save much as possible, and post recession had to make all kinds of cuts to keep managing.
Where the f**k was our government help? We never had any, ever. Guess I mustve been "rich" after all, well damn where does the line for 'rest of us' kick in so we can get the government that looks out for our best interests??
Because ya know, while we all struggle both parties actively seek to balance budgets/reduce deficits and cut social spending but never corporate subsidies, or touch our military spending. Yeah those are my interests!
Besides, some TRUE lefties have argued even the anti poverty spending gov has done is still "conservative" in that it tries to better market conditions to spur growth, and may provide aid to the needy but doesnt actually relieve the problem. Ive read everything you posted, I ask you do the same now. This is long and not the rantings of an internet warrior but please read, and no its not written by Austrians/libertarians: http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/ppb78.pdf
The guy more recently has argued Obama has been 1: a fiscal conservative, and 2 all his policies are the same, trying to spur markets and "better" the poor's prospects for jobs that dont exist.
AKA government never acts in the best interest of people. Even in Europe, Austerity is sending them all back to recession, all the EZ bailouts were basically to help German banks. Even FDRs new deal was very corporate friendly...I struggle to find cases of gov truly helping the "people" because even when they do its through corporate interests..
Edited by JJLehto - August 21 2013 at 09:43 |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 09:48 |
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The main problem with Libertarianism - a point I keep trying to make but you guys are so stuck in your ideology that you'll never see it - is that you cannot prove your theories through experimentation. Rather, you insist that it must be all or nothing. Those who think you are insane - and we are many - point out "but when this policy was put into place, the results were not good", and your answer is ALWAYS "well, that's because you have to do EVERYTHING I want you to do before it will work." That's complete and utter bullsh*t. Until you can prove your theories on a smaller scale, no one with half a brain is going to listen to you! I mean, it's like we keep pointing to various experiments and saying "dude, all the rats died." And you go "oh, but see, that won't work unless all people in the entire world are part of the experiment...." And we go "um...but what if all people in the entire world die?" And you go "oh, silly you, you have to see my wisdom...."
CULT. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:03 |
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But to be fair you glossed over all my points that yall are just as biased, ideological and often argue in theoretical terms while ignoring reality.
I have seen cult like behavior from lefties as well, people that worship people and ideas and not looking at situations, they wont even THINK about thinking about alternatives. I thought knowledge was observing, pondering, seeing all sides and trying to reconcile. Thats why my ideas have shifted so much over time, including away from total libertarianism.
Ill let all that go, you NEED to address something I brought up: What about the bailouts? was my point wrong? That article blasts markets for being wrong and not actually letting wrongdoers fail, but the gov bailed em out...
And those corporations that would disband after meeting an obligation? I thought they were always about squeezing much profit as possible.
What about all the examples of gov supporting business above us? And at best we get scraps of it?
You can disagree, but you wont even address it. I went to great length to disprove the article, which I read though you assume we never will, and you just ignore it all and say "the problem with libertarians are". You didnt debate a single point I made.
CULT
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:24 |
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Anyway despite that I will address your point:
We never will have a "true" system of any ideal but we have had, more or less, free market libertarianism over much of US history and I'd say it was very successful. Especially the second half of the 1800s, the golden age of free market capitalism that all libertarians dream of.
OVERALL, Id say it was a great time for the US. Yes, there was greed and exploitation, yes a few people got rich beyond words, and yes there were some deplorable conditions unfortunately. But also the overall population became better off. This cant be denied.
Now, of course there is a role for government to play such as regulating hours, OT pay, child labor, making sure conditions are not horrifying. Like the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, where they used to bar the doors so people couldnt leave...and when a fire broke out they all were trapped inside and died. Im not sure anyone is so insane as to say "thats toally fine its the market baby let the comp do what they want!"
So yes, I agree. There needs to be government beyond the essentials, to "soften" the harshness of the markets and even to provide aid (or jobs) to catch the leftovers and aid the truly needed.
That said, we HAVE seen very free market capitalism in much of the world and it was the largest improvement for the greatest number of people ever in human history, spurred on technological advancements and was essential to freedom. Market capitalism and freedom grew hand in hand. And I dont think Im being an ideologue, just observing history. Didnt capitalism and the shedding of fuedalism grow together? Didnt democracy, law based societies valuing freedom grow with capitalism?
Pre capitalism was the days of kings, then later serfdom, when both economic well being and freedom were crap. As capitalism slowly grew, more people got wealth, and more importantly anyone was free to try (didnt have to be a king, elite or have gov favors) people were free to save, spend. blah blah free market capitalism did exist, and was great overall, even though it has problems that can be addressed.
Will you at least grant me Im being realistic, basing what I said on history and trying to be rational? Edited by JJLehto - August 21 2013 at 10:29 |
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Dudemanguy
Forum Groupie 
Joined: November 14 2011 Location: In the closet Status: Offline Points: 89 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:39 |
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The Guilded Age is was plagued with corporate subsidies, patent laws and other such nonsense which enabled corporations to centralize power and grow enormous in the first place. It wasn't a free market by any stretch or sense of the term. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:44 |
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Correct
But I did say we've never had a "true" free market, and that period is the closest we can get.
It still was enough to prove the success of market capitalism, or marketish if you want, and that the idea is not purely whack job textbook theory.
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Dudemanguy
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 14 2011 Location: In the closet Status: Offline Points: 89 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:55 |
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Well sure, but I'd think that the first half of the 1800s in the North would have been closer myself, but whatever. Market capitalism certainly works, that much cannot be denied without getting into long discussions over the definition of capitalism really is. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 11:27 |
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Indeed, which is why Im not going into it
Besides the point was to address Geoff, that yes we've never had the scenario that libertarians may want but first, no one has ever had their ideal world, and two we have had free market capitalism enough to still prove it works best. Even if one disagrees, he cant say its total bunk bullcrap theory because we have had largely unregulated, un planned, free markets to make observations off of. |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: August 21 2013 at 14:14 |
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Ok, you haven't been involved in this thread continuously for the last few months, I don't think. If you had, you'd have noticed the round and round and round discussion where I have tried and tried and tried to get people like Rob to concede a single point, and all they do is deflect and question everything I have to say. I've given the example that getting involved in discussions when Libertarians like that is like the following: Me: "I have a royal flush." Them: "No you don't!" Me: "Ah, but I do! Here is a 10 of hearts..." Them: "That's not a 10 of hearts." Me: "Um, yes it is. Count the hearts - 10 of them. And little 10's in the corners too." Them: "Those aren't hearts." Me: "Ugh, yes they are! See, it's like a little butt shape with a point on the bottom - that's a heart! And it's red! And there's 10 of them! This is a 10 of hearts!" Them: "This card came from a different deck." Me: "No it didn't! Look at the back and compare it to the rest of the cards - same pattern!" Them: "No it's not." etc. etc. etc. etc. I've had enough of it. SO I just pop in here every once in awhile to bug them. I don't have the time to get involved in such pointless discussions, nor does it help my temperament or blood pressure. Edited by dtguitarfan - August 21 2013 at 14:16 |
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