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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 15:55
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Because yes, they both support the Fed (look into it ok)

I'm aware of this.  Not sure that thinking this is going to change anytime soon is a realistic belief.  Therefore it becomes a non-issue in terms of whom I vote for.

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


a bad foreign policy

I am a pacifist, so I empathize with this sentiment, but surely you would admit the Dems are closer than Reps?

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


violating our rights

Once again, I empathize with this sentiment, but when you look at states that are completely under Republican control, like North Carolina (been following the Moral Monday movement?), surely you would admit the Dems are not at the Fascist levels that Reps are at and therefore are a better choice?  Yes, we've got a problem with the NSA.  The Reps LOVE talking about national security, so I doubt that if they were put in control (rather than a Dem), anything would get better.

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


the war on drugs

They're coming around.  Dem controlled states are the ones that have legalized marijuana....

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

And you still have not answered me, what is your view on the role for government then? Specifics, with where markets come into play.

Well, there is where things get difficult.  Because I'm not a genius like Noam Chomsky.  So I look at our current system and think "realistically, how could it be improved?"  Really, in an ideal state, for me, I think it would look a lot more socialist.  I am what you'd call a Progressive Christian, and so a lot of what I think politically does work into what I believe about God - I know people love to preach that you should separate the two, but in reality it doesn't really work out that well.  I don't think you can really separate your philosophy in one area from your philosophy in another - if you try, you get something called cognitive dissonance.  So when I read things in the Bible about the Year of Jubilee and gleaning laws, I think "socialism".  You ever heard of the Year of Jubilee?  It was a year in which all debt was cancelled and land was redistributed in order to break up unfair monopolies.  I think this could have been applied during the bailouts after the wall street collapse - rather than bailing out the banks, if we had bailed out the mortgage holders, wouldn't both problems have been solved at once?  It was completely asinine of us to give money directly to the banks, in my opinion.  I think our current government is far too authoritarian, as evidenced by the extremely large prison population, and so I can lean close to Libertarianism, but realistically, I don't think we're going to be able to wrestle power away from the rich elite by asking nicely.  So I think that if you went dramatically from what we have now to a Libertarian society, you'd find that we'd end up with a government by the rich.  I hate speed limits, but driving is unsafe as it is...but I'd rather we be more like Europe where there are no speed limits in some places, but it's harder to get a driving license....  I dunno, does that help you to get a better picture of where I stand?  Ralph Nader is a political hero of mine.
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 18:29
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


I'm against private prisons.


I'm against prisons.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 18:34
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

yes, in their crazy world, somehow things will magically work out of there are NO taxes whatsoever and NO government whatsoever.


Why is a system where we expect people to act in their own self-interests "magical" but a system where you expect politicians to act selflessly for the good of society is "good policy?"
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 18:38
Corporations would act selflessly for society. Just a while ago BP donated a bunch of oil to the gulf of Mexico.
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 18:39
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Corporations would act selflessly for society. Just a while ago BP donated a bunch of oil to the gulf of Mexico.


LOL
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 20:02
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


I'm against private prisons.


I'm against prisons.


Well yeah, that too.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 20:09
I'm against privates.
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Points: 65550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 20:44
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I'm more open to the post office option. Though I am happy with USPS service.

Yeah it's not bad when you've lived elsewhere and had to use their mail service.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 20:58
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I'm more open to the post office option. Though I am happy with USPS service.
Yeah it's not bad when you've lived elsewhere and had to use their mail service.
I have lived in the US for 8 years. I have had ONE instance of a lost delivery by USPS. The same number I've had from private companies DHL and Fedex. And i have bought things and in general used USPS about 2000 times more.

The postal service in my country of origin, on the other hand, is still a nightmare .
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Points: 65550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:00
 ^ When my Mom mails something from Rome she always sends it through the Vatican because she knows it will arrive in a timely manner--   try that with regular Italian post.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:01
I agree that the post office in general does a good job, but I continue to see no compelling reason for taxpayer funding. They are mostly self-sufficient at this point anyway.
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:25
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


So when I read things in the Bible about the Year of Jubilee and gleaning laws, I think "socialism".  You ever heard of the Year of Jubilee?  It was a year in which all debt was cancelled and land was redistributed in order to break up unfair monopolies.


Oh dear.  Confused

Applying terms such as "socialism" and "monopolies" to ancient Hebraic legal codes is awfully anachronistic (and inappropriate, since clearly that legal code was never meant to apply to you if you are not a Hebrew).  Ancient Near Eastern people were by and large collectivists, and lived in a world where even privacy was a rarity.  There was a different standard for Israelites and foreigners (as there would be for most any group and foreigners in that time).  Trying to draw a set of principles for a post-industrial world from an agrarian legal code is, if I may say so, a little silly.  You may as well be trying to figure out what the biblical principles for space travel entail.

But if you insist on practicing the Year of Jubilee, I won't stop you:

1. If you purchase land, do you intend to return it to its original owner or his family? (v. 10)
2. Do you purchase land based on how many years are left before the jubilee? (v. 15)
3. Do you accept interest from your savings account? (v. 36)
4. Do you allow the seller of a house in a gated community to redeem the house in one year's time and do you return a house in an open area on the year of jubilee? (v. 29-31)

I know you're just going to accuse me of ignoring your facts; I'll take comfort knowing that you didn't write the Bible.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25&version=NIV

PS- The year of jubilee didn't stop anyone from having a complete control over a resource or service.

Like Jesus.  Wink


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

   It was completely asinine of us to give money directly to the banks, in my opinion.  I think our current government is far too authoritarian, as evidenced by the extremely large prison population, and so I can lean close to Libertarianism, but realistically, I don't think we're going to be able to wrestle power away from the rich elite by asking nicely. 


You're right.  Asking nicely won't work.  What do you do?


Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


So I think that if you went dramatically from what we have now to a Libertarian society, you'd find that we'd end up with a government by the rich.


And what we have now is...what? 


Edited by Epignosis - August 19 2013 at 21:26
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:26
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I agree that the post office in general does a good job, but I continue to see no compelling reason for taxpayer funding. They are mostly self-sufficient at this point anyway.


I don't.  They destroyed $100 worth of product and didn't care.

They were kind enough to send back the crumpled cardboard box. 
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:54
In the name of austerity, despite the well documented negative impacts, food stamps will be cut. But never ever will lets say....corporate subsidies be cut. I believe dems are in power and all, including Obama, generally support austerity cuts. Awesome eh Geoff? Gov really has our best interests at heart eh? All the liberals were dreaming of this situation in 08 im sure
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 21:57
Geoff seems to get the general idea that concentrated power is a bad thing, but can't that it applies to government as well as private companies.
The principle behind libertarianism is very simple, and actually quite cynical, in contrast to the way in which we are always accused of being idealistic.

1. When people get power, they tend to abuse it.
2. Therefore, the most preferable system is the one which most decentralizes power.
Libertarianism. QED.
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 22:11
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Geoff seems to get the general idea that concentrated power is a bad thing, but can't that it applies to government as well as private companies.
The principle behind libertarianism is very simple, and actually quite cynical, in contrast to the way in which we are always accused of being idealistic.

1. When people get power, they tend to abuse it.
2. Therefore, the most preferable system is the one which most decentralizes power.
Libertarianism. QED.


Or, as rogerthat put it the other day:
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

.  I recognize that govt is inefficient.  But so is humanity.  When will we stop cheating ourselves.  
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 65550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 22:30
^ I especially liked that last quote from rogerthat as well
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Points: 32552 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 23:22
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ I especially liked that last quote from rogerthat as well



Great!  Then you as well realize that our government is not made up of kind pterodactyls.  Smile
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Points: 65550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2013 at 23:44
Not sure what that means though my interpretation may've been slightly different.   I think there must be a better way but as I am not a political animal nor religious, I seek that enlightenment elsewhere.   I do credit Libertarianism for its contributions to individual values and non-dependent progressivism, but I tend to think any philosophy is insufficient to conduct a society.   I suspect man himself must change for there to be meaningful human advancement.

 
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2013 at 09:35
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Geoff seems to get the general idea that concentrated power is a bad thing, but can't that it applies to government as well as private companies.
The principle behind libertarianism is very simple, and actually quite cynical, in contrast to the way in which we are always accused of being idealistic.

1. When people get power, they tend to abuse it.
2. Therefore, the most preferable system is the one which most decentralizes power.
Libertarianism. QED.
 
mhm and it's not even an issue of right/wrong, gov should/shouldnt do this....I think we're a pretty realistic crowd in that: Government is naturally prone to corruption, so more of it = more corruption and as a tool of force it will naturally be used BY the rich and powerful much as possible. Most get and admit this, but then "well markets are bad" so government it must be. Who's unrealistic here??
 
To basically have the progressive dream we need a technocratic dictatorship.
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