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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
It would be easier if you would simply stick to the point of explaining how the complex arrangement of atoms that form a human bean can be described by a set of forumlae and a set of reduced data such that they can be used to reconstitute a replica of the human that is exact in every way (including all memories and personality), because at present you have not provided any evidence to suggest that it is ever going to be possible, in fact your example of the evolution of the Universe and its laws suggests that it will not produce an exact replica. [It is unlikely that the same rules and initial conditions would even result in a human, let alone one specific human out of 108 billion possible humans (the estimated total number of humans who have ever lived)].
 
If I knew that I wouldn't be typing in this forum but giving conferences at MIT or CERN Tongue
If I can present justifiable reasons as to why formula are not data compression and why data has a limit of irreducibility then (with or without an invitation to lecture at MIT or CERN) you should be able to explain why you think I am wrong. I am really sorry, but just saying that I am wrong and that there are people in the world who are more clever than you or I is simply not good enough. If we can encode even the simplest non-repetitive non-sequential data sequence to a simple formula then that should be demonstrable (and again I am sorry but) showing that a simple formula can create a non-repetitive non-sequential data sequence is not the answer here - we need to take any simple non-repetitive non-sequential data sequence and produce a unique formula for it, for example the coast line of Norway is fractilian, the Mandelbrot Set is also fractilian - we can create the Mandelbrot Set from a formula, we cannot derive the formula for the Norwegian coastline.
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

But I already put the example of blood as example of features which do not need to be atom-by-atom identical replicas to ensure a perfectly viable reproduction. If the hair in my arms is not precisely identical than the one I have now, that's not gonna change who I am. I can shave it completely and I will still be me. You don't need to specify my head hair atom by atom, just the type of hair I have, the area covered and the hair density in each rough area and I will not notice any difference, it will still be me, if I am reconstructed somewhere else with my hair slightly different, who cares?
I could even loose one finger and it will still be me (although I would not happily accept that as a successful teleportation). I can have a 5 cm shorter bowel and it will still be me. There's so much of me which need not be an identical atom-by-atom copy in order to still be me without making any practical difference. A lot of my body, just giving my DNA and my 3-D dimensional measures and a few relevant features could be reconstructed with enough accuracy. Knowing how a leg is, my legs 3-D dimensions and maybe a few more features my legs could be reconstructed, if this or that vein is 1 millimeter deeper or more to the surface of my skin, it will still be me.
Of course some variations could alter important traits, affecting for example my life expectancy, those should not be allowed to be changed.
Again I'm certainly not maintaining that it will be eventually possible to teletransport a human, far from it! I just argued that the argument of the posted calculations of the information which would be required for that feat, based on the premise that there's no other way than specifying the atomic configuration of the human in every detail, I don't think that is a valid argument.
Yes, I am aware that you believe there is a better way of describing the whole human body other than by atom configuration but the magnitude of the problem remains regardless, the end result has to have a configuration of atoms that is identical to the original otherwise it is not teletransportation, losing toes, hair, eye-colour, memories, personality traits, immune system inheritance, physical height, muscle, teeth etc is as unacceptable as being reconfigured as a mouse or a bowl of soup. I do not believe that specifying the atomic configuration is the answer either - it is just an illustration of the magnitude of the problem (it is a simplistic indication of complexity) and I continue to use it as an illustration because it is representative. [The team from Leicester University also do not believe that the atomic configuration is the answer, they believe it is significantly more complex than that by a factor of 1 trillion]. I actually think that an instantaneous single-sample is insufficient to recreate a human being because we are not a static object, we move through time and that has to be taken into consideration and encoded along with the data of the physical matter, I also suspect that we actually would need to go to the subatomic level as well as encoding more macro-level relationships (a skeletal joint is useless if it is not articulated). The atomic configuration serves as a useful (in the context of this thread) indication of the scale of the problem and nothing more.
 
Whether you specify the human body by cartesian coordinates of atoms; or by a series of schematics and a kit of parts; or by an array of very complex formula and a huge amount of initial condition data; or by some-other means as yet to be discovered, the volume of data remains as a similar order of magnitude.
 
None of the things you suggest would result in an appreciable reduction in the amount of data required. Even if we remove all the redundancy in the human body, all you have done is subtracted a big number from the significantly larger initial data count. Encoding duplicated cells isn't a massive reduction in data content either because it is again a subtraction from the total, not a division of the total. To achieve practical data compression we need divide the initial data count by a large number, not just subtract a smaller number from it. Redundancy still just takes us to a point where no further compression can be achieved and the remaining data is irreducible - if the total amount of redundant atoms in a human body is 50% that is only a 50% reduction in total data content, my guesstimate of 3 x 1027 atoms reduces to 1.5 x 1027 atoms and the transmission time is now a mere 500 million years.
 
 
(as I explained before) In your blood example you still need to know where to put each duplicated cell. Just saying "fill the circulatory system" is not enough - the ratio between oxygenated and de-oxygenated red cells varies through the body, the life cycle of a blood cell is also an important factor that needs to be considered; white cells are more of a problem because there are several different and disparate types of white cell and their contribution to the immune system differs. This is ignoring the actual mechanics of filling the circulatory system and the effect of doing that on the human "substrate" (presumably) prior to reanimation - a full blood transfusion takes 4 hours - attempting to do that quicker will cause aneurysm, hemorrhage or rupture - keeping the brain "alive" during that time is an issue ... in fact the whole point of a transfusion is to keep the patient alive during and after the transfusion - it is not like an engine oil change where the old oil is drained out and the system flushed through before the new oil is added - a human body without blood is a dead body]. Yes, these are all "technical" limitations and not theoretical limitations, but they still do not result in a compression ratio even approaching what is required.
 
 


Edited by Dean - August 09 2013 at 18:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 08:42
Hadn't watched BSG in a while but did last night.  I'd forgotten their primary method of distance travel was not the warp speeds or stargates but the FTL "jump" whereby they plot the coordinates they'd like to go and initiate a very quick "jump" to that location.  

Another cool thing was that the station employed all non-networked computers so that the Cylons could not take over everything should they penetrate defenses.  But could a station of that complexity actually function with non-networked computers?  Wouldn't the systems have to talk to one another?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 10:12
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Hadn't watched BSG in a while but did last night.  I'd forgotten their primary method of distance travel was not the warp speeds or stargates but the FTL "jump" whereby they plot the coordinates they'd like to go and initiate a very quick "jump" to that location.  
Battle Star writers have dispensed with the physics and simply jump from one location to another, apparently by folding space around the ship (which can be stationary). They can do this with amazing positional accuracy without knowing any of the "geography" of the destination (an "impossibe" thing), for example they can jump into orbit around a planet they have no prior knowledge of.
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:


Another cool thing was that the station employed all non-networked computers so that the Cylons could not take over everything should they penetrate defenses.  But could a station of that complexity actually function with non-networked computers?  Wouldn't the systems have to talk to one another?
It depends on what you call a network - any communication between two or more computers can be called a network even if it is one-way and only point-to-point, though it is generally accepted that "a network" is two-way communication between any two points in the grid. A series of computers working completely independantly in a greater system (such as a space ship or station) would be difficult to achieve but not impossible because at some point they will have to share a common resource or be able to know what another computer is doing - for example a navigation computer and a life-support computer would both need to know what the fuel management computer is doing. This could be done using a semaphor and arbitration system to ensure that only one computer used a resourse at a time - essentially this creates a system of write-only-memory (semaphor flagging) that the computer requesting access (to a resource or packet of data) cannot read, (or more accurately does not need to read), which is interpretted as read-only-memory by all the other computers - all that is needed then is an arbitration algorythm to determine whether the computer with control of a resource (or packet of data) releases it to the requesting computer or retains it - acknowledgement is then "posted" on a second write-only-memory that the first computer can only read. The same system can also be used to anticipate future resource utilisation, using the semaphor/arbitration to signal availability. (This sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is - a team of sportsmen can be thought of as an array of non-networked computers that use visual and non-visual signalling to move a ball around a playing field).
 


Edited by Dean - August 11 2013 at 13:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 12:52
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Consider pi written numerically 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679 ....

Do you consider that 
 
pi = C / d is a more compressed way of expressing the same information?
Coming back to this because it is preying on my mind.
 
pi = C / d looks more elegant and concise but it is not a compression - to calculate pi from that formula you need an accurate value of C for a particular value of d (or r). For any value of d (or r) the required value of C is an irrational number with as many digits as you need for the number of digits in pi. You could approximate the value by using approximations for C, which is were we get approximations like C =22, d =7 (22/7) and C =355, d =113 (355/113) - but neither of these would get pi correct to 100 decimal places (as quoted above) (or 101 significant figures) - to achieve that you would need a value of C with 101 digits.
 
You could estimate the value of C using the formula for a circle: x² + y² = r², but all this is doing is approximating a circle to a regular polygon composed of triangles with dimensions r and dx/dy; a regular polygon of 3 × 228 sides would only give 17dp accuracy.
 
You cannot even measure the value of pi to 100dp empirically, if you measured the circumference and diameter of largest thing in the Universe (which would be, the Universe) using the smallest practical increment of length (the Planck Length) as a unit of measure you would only achieve 62dp.
 
So pi = C / d does not practically represent the 100dp precision of pi  shown in the quote unless we send the value of  as a multiple (or fraction) of pi itself to 100dp - for example if we set d to 1 then send  = 3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679 ... i.e. no compression of data.
 
For 100dp accuracy the formula becomes far more complex and delves into the world of infinite series to iteratively converge on the answer - however these methods take many iterations to converge on a value that is accurate to 100dp. For example:
 \frac{1}{\pi} = \frac{2\sqrt{2}}{9801} \sum^\infty_{k=0} \frac{(4k)!(1103+26390k)}{(k!)^4 396^{4k}}

Now the formula looks a lot less "compressed" and the computation time has increased  - also note that this formula uses the square root of 2, which is another irrational number - the accuracy of the value of pi  is now determined by the accuracy with which the square root of 2 can be calculated... It's a lot easier just to transmit the 101 digits of the value of pi than transmit the 40+ characters in the formula and then compute the value from it (I don't know how many iterations it would take to converge on 100dp - but it is lots).

I know I keep banging on that formula and laws are not data compression but this is pretty fundamental, the equation pi = C / d  is a simple linear equation for a straight line:
 
pi = C / d  therefore C = pi x which is the equation of a straight line in the form of y = mx + c (where x= d, m=pi and c=0)
 
But the equation is not a straight line - it produces just one value of for one value of d. You can use the equation to compute different values for the variable C based upon the constant pi and the variable d and if plotted these different values will sit as dots (loci) on a straight line whose gradient is pi but they will not draw the straight line, they do not connect the dots. It is not continuously changing data, it is quantised by the steps you use for d. For example if you compute the values for at two points you still don't know the values of between the two calculated points on the graph unless you compute them.
 
The physical world does not quantise the values of C and so any formula we use is a simulation of the real world quantised to discrete values. This can be illustrated in the equation for a sinewave:
 
y(t) = A sin(wt) where w is the angular frequency = 2 x pi x f
 
In the real world the value of t changes continuously and the sinewave it describes is also continuous but in the computational world we cannot continuously change t, we feed discrete values for t into the equation and get discrete values of y out. We can make the step intervals between t(n) and t(n+1) smaller and smaller but we can never get to an infinitely small increment. Therefore the values of y we produce are incremental steps, not a continuously varying value. If the step increment between t(n) and t(n+1) gets too big, for example if it approaches the value of 1/f, then the accuracy of the sinewave becomes increasingly worse until we reach t(n+1) - t(n)  = 1/f then all the values for y would be the same and since sin(2 x pi x f/f) = 0 then that value would be zero.
 
Of course the real world does not use the formula y(t) = A sin(wt) to construct a sinewave like (for example) the electrical and magnetic fields in the beam of light (EM radiation) from a laser, nor does it use a Taylor Series or a lookup table (which is how most pocket calculators compute the sine function). The formula is a mathematical description of the waveform that gives instantaneous values for any given value of f and t. It is a model (or simulation) that can be used to calculate the state of the waveform at a particular instance. While we can use this model to make predictions about the behaviour of the waveform in the real world it is still just a model and we have to iteratively apply the formula many times to produce a simulation of changing events in the real world.
 
Formula can be used to produce a lot of data, this is not in doubt. We can produce a table of sines based upon a Taylor series expansion for sin(x) that would fill a book, (I still have one of these books on my bookshelf from the days of yore before desktop computers and pocket calculators that tabulated Logarithmic and Trigonometric Tables to 7dp), but we still need to feed data into the formula to get data out - if the formula is dependant on one variable then it is one piece of data in for one piece of data out, if it is dependant on two variables it is two pieces of data in for every piece of data out. No formula gives one piece of data out for no data in, or two pieces out for one in.
 


Edited by Dean - August 11 2013 at 18:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 14:05
Quasi-relevant, but Firefly was a damn cool show.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 15:18
^yes it was and idiots cancelled it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2013 at 15:32
Odd series Firefly, the tv programmes were a bit so-so but in its dying throws it produced one of the better SF films in Serenity.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2013 at 13:40
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Coming back to this because it is preying on my mind.
Thanks for taking the time to write that post. I'm not going to argue anymore about this point, but I'l just add some quotes of a paper by a professor at Rome university which can be downloaded for free here, so it should be clear that it's not just my words you are arguing against. Whether these viewpoints match with your understanding of the term "compression" or not is not really my concern. (sorry after having copy/pasted I don't know how to reduce the line spacing)
 
http://www.academia.edu/2642005/The_Laws_of_nature_and_the_effectiveness_of_mathematics
 

THE LAWS OF NATURE AND THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MATHEMATICS

(...)

The fourth hypothesis, building on formal results by

Kolmogorov, Solomonov and Chaitin, claims that mathematics is so useful in

describing the natural world because it is the science of the abbreviation of

sequences, and mathematically formulated laws of nature enable us to

compress the information contained in the sequence of numbers in which we

code our observations. In this tradition, laws are equivalent to the shortest

algorithms capable of generating the lists of zeros and ones representing the

empirical data.

(...)
 

THE ALGORITHMIC VIEW OF THE LAWS OF NATURE

Suppose that the temporal evolution of any physical system is describable

by finite strings of real numbers, corresponding to operational measures of

physical magnitudes (temperature, pressure etc.). We can have two cases:

such strings can be ordered

(111000111000111000…)

or truly random

(0100110101100110…).

In the first case, the string can be generated by a simple instruction (“print

111000 n times”), which is much shorter than the list itself. In the second

case, the string appears as truly random, where “appear” is meant to stress

that while we can show that a finite string is not random by giving the

generating law (algorithm), we can never prove that a string is random (this

is a version of the halting theorem).

At this point we can give two definitions, based on algorithmic

complexity theory, which will be relevant for our purpose:

Definition1: the complexity of a string is the length of the shortest

algorithm capable of generating it

Definition2: a string is said to be algorithmically compressible when

there is an algorithm capable of generating it, such that its information

content (number of bits) is much less than that of the string.

As an illustration of these definitions, consider that a string like

{1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, …} (1)

is obviously not random, since it can be trivially obtained by squaring the

positive integers in the list

{1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, …} (2)

If the numbers in (2) correspond to measured magnitudes in such a way

that, say in a temporal interval of 1, 2, 3 seconds (the input data), a body

travels 1, 4, 9 meters (the output), then the existence of a rule generating (1)

from (2) shows that (1) is algorithmically compressible. The above algorithm

is – modulo the constant ½g. – Galileo’s law of free fall, generating the

spatial intervals (1) from the square of the temporal intervals (2).

In a word, by following the metaphor of scientific laws regarded as the

software of a physical system, we discover that searching for laws is

tantamount to asking which is the length of the shortest program capable of

generating the string of numbers expressing the experimental measures.

Such a length – the complexity of the string – will be equal to that of the

original string only if the latter is composed by apparently random numbers,

and does not obey any known law.

The idea that scientific laws are an economic synthesis of all the

information contained in our observations is certainly not new, and in this

algorithmic approach it finds a new, rigorous and precise formulation. It was

especially Ernst Mach who regarded science and its theories and laws as an

economic “summary” of our observations. As he wrote (Mach, 1896):

Science is a form of business. Its purpose is to find the maximum amount

of the infinite eternal truth with the minimum amount of work, in the

minimum expenditure of time and with the minimum amount of thought

effort. After having made explicit the philosophical consequences that seem to

follow from the software metaphor for scientific laws, we can now finally

discuss a possible explanation of the applicability of mathematics, due to the

physicist John Barrow (Barrow, 1992):

science exists because the natural world seems algorithmically

compressible. The mathematical formulae that we call laws of nature are

economical reductions of enormous sequences of data expressing

changes of state of the world: here is what we mean by intelligibility of

the world…Since the physical world is algorithmically compressible,

mathematics is useful to describe it because it is the language of the

abbreviation of sequences. The human mind enables us to make contact

with that world because our brain has the ability of compressing complex

sequences of sense data in shorter form. Such abbreviations make

thought and memory possible. The natural limits that nature poses to our

senses prevent us from overloading our brains with information about the

world. Such limits are security gates for our minds.

 
 
Just for the record, I will remind my quote which caused all this discussion
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

In a sense, the laws of physics themselves are a wonderful example of compression.
 


Edited by Gerinski - August 12 2013 at 14:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2013 at 18:03
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Coming back to this because it is preying on my mind.
Thanks for taking the time to write that post. I'm not going to argue anymore about this point, but I'l just add some quotes of a paper by a professor at Rome university which can be downloaded for free here, so it should be clear that it's not just my words you are arguing against. Whether these viewpoints match with your understanding of the term "compression" or not is not really my concern. (sorry after having copy/pasted I don't know how to reduce the line spacing)
 
 

THE LAWS OF NATURE AND THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MATHEMATICS

(...)

::snip::
No, these viewpoints do not match with the term "compression" when it is used in relation to compressing the data that perfectly decribes a physical human being. To understand that you need to look at the word "algorithm" that Mauro uses a lot in his thesis (as a synonym for formula), its definition(s) and meaning and its relation to the real world (ontic) and simulation (sequence & succession). [He is not talking abiut what you are talking about]
 
The real world does not use algorithms to control the behaviour of entities in the physical world; the entities behave in a particular way that can be described by a set of laws that can be expressed in the mathematical world as a formulae or algorithms that we can use to simulate (and thus predict) that behaviour. We can only simulate an outcome, we cannot take the laws of physics and create a Universe
 
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

 
"The human mind enables us to make contact with that world because our brain has the ability of compressing complex sequences of sense data in shorter form. Such abbreviations make thought and memory possible. The natural limits that nature poses to our senses prevent us from overloading our brains with information about the world. Such limits are security gates for our minds."
(note: my emphasis)
We use formula as abbrieviations all the time for this very reason. We know that  y = mx + c plots a straight line so we only have to plot two points on a graph and we can mentally draw a line between them - that is a compression of data that our brains can do because we can mentally interpolate between the two points pictorially without having to calculate the infinite number of loci that exist between them. Similarily we can "see" that y(t) = A sin(wt) will plot a sinewave of amplitude A and frequency w without having to plot every value of y for every value of t from zero to infinitea - that is a compression of data that our brains simply recognise from the shorthand of the formula. If we want to use either of those in the real world we do need to calculate every data-point and that is not a compression.
 
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

 
Just for the record, I will remind my quote which caused all this discussion
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

In a sense, the laws of physics themselves are a wonderful example of compression.
 
Those are not my words.


Edited by Dean - August 12 2013 at 18:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2013 at 04:42
One Science Fiction topic we've not covered so far is weaponry, probably because most of it is close to reality as it is. We don't have handheld phasers and lasers or photon torpedoes and a light-sabre is probably a technical impossibility but research into directed energy weapons is currently happening. Lasers can be used for cutting material at close range and for "killing" electronics at distance, but we've ways to go before we can be destructive on matter at distance. Other forms of radiant energy such as EMP are also possible, though at present no more destructive than comparable ballistic weapons at far higher energy cost. SF shows a preference for energy weapons over ballistic (mass) weapons because they are sexy and futuristic though films and stories such as Judge Dredd, Blade Runner, Futureworld and Logan's Run used ballistic handguns styled after the wild-west six shooter for aestheic reasons. Rail-guns are a technical reality albeit on a small scale at present, but using them as the mass-drivers for turning asteroids into planet smashers is merely a question of upscaling and power - as any dinosaur would tell you, the effect of dropping a large asteroid on a planet is devastating on a global scale, the technology for engineering such an event is simple newtonian physics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2013 at 05:00
Phew - what a relief - from mathematical theorem the nature of which makes my mind go 'ping' (I have truly been following the debate here, but just don't have the knowlege to be able to even begin to understand), to guns.

Guns

Guns I understand - long stick go "boom" man fall over.

Edited by Jim Garten - August 15 2013 at 06:08

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2013 at 07:04

 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2013 at 09:17
I'm not going to do a light-hatchet job on Dr Michio Kaku's popular science show because he presents some excellent scientific ideas and covers all of the reasons why the archetypal Star Wars light-sabre is an impossibility. His solution is a good one, but with problems that may be insurmountable at a practical technical/engineering level.
 
A carbon nano-tube battery is a misnomer, it is not a battery but a capacitor - batteries work by an electrochemical reaction that generates electricity, capacitors store charge between two plates - once you get really large values of capacitance they behave like batteries but they do not deliver continuous power like a battery does. Research into nano-tube batteries is on-going and they do promise to be one of the most important developments in the future for reducing the size and weight of battery technologies.
 
Ceramic blades are very strong and as a knife can be amazingly sharp, but they are also very brittle so any ceramic substrate that is used to contain the plasma would need to find a means of withstanding the shock of hitting two blades together. Unless this is solved the blades would simply shatter.
 
The magnetic field to contain the plasma needs to be generated, and his design doesn't explain how that field could generated and be made to be cylindrical or have it stop at 1 metre from the handle. Depending on the physical shape of this field it is likely to react with any magnetic material that comes close and simply slicing it through the air will induce an electrical field that can result in current flow in any metallic conductor. It may even have a gyroscopic effect with the earth's magneto sphere (dunno, I'm guessing)
 
The titanium fan that creates the plasma column produces an air flow of 100 cubic feet per second (3,300 ltr/s) ... this is 100 times the airflow of a Dyson cyclonic vacuum cleaner confined to a 25mm nozzle which will result in a huge amount of suction at the pommel end and an equal amount of thrust at the blade end (I'll leave the conversion of airflow to thrust to the reader to calculate). This will make the sabre uncontrollable, it is unlikely that you could even keep hold of it let alone wield it like a sword.
 
Heat is major issue - the 3000 degrees of the plasma is only part of the problem - a column of plasma at that temperature would radiate ferocious amount of heat over a wide area, igniting any combustible material in the vicinity, including the human holding the sabre. As he said, to generate that amount of heat requires a lot of power, (megawatts/hour) drawing that degree of power from a battery would heat up all the components in the handle to extremely hot temperatures. Also the 3300 ltr/s airflow would create friction in the air molecules at both ends and on the fan-blades that would rapidly rise to temperatures too hot to hold even without the plasma.
 
 
So scientifically possible - yes, practically feasible - no. (IMO)
 
Also, he said that laser light goes on continuously forever - this is only partly true. In reality even in the near vacuum of space light disperses, this we can show experimentally by firing a laser pulse at the reflectors that the Apollo astronauts placed on the moon  - if the light beam did not disperse then hitting the target would be extremely difficult, fortunately it does but even then only a small fraction of that reflected laser beam arrives back to earth at the detector. A laser beam sent from earth that dispersed by only a fraction of a second of arc would be several kilometres in diameter after travelling a light-year so the intensity of that light would have reduced proportionally. (This can also be demonstrated with a simple laser pointer).


Edited by Dean - August 15 2013 at 10:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2013 at 12:44
Not totally about weapons per se, but related.  I've always been intrigued by AI's potential to turn into a nightmare scenario ala the Cylons.  How soon will we be able to create artificial life forms complex enough to band together and turn on us?  More specifically, what is required to make that jump from an AI unit that is programmed to complete tasks and "learn" to one capable of forming thoughts and desires of it's own, based on stimuli and experience, but not instruction from us?

We could create a kill switch inside of any device but any machine complex enough to develop its own plan may find a way around our safety measures. 

Thoughts on the validity of a Cylon-like threat?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2013 at 20:19
[referring specifically to Cylon-type artificial lifeforms]
 
 
The first question is "can we achieve machine consciousness or machine sentience?" since the term Artificial Intelligence is really too vague and nebulous to have any specific meaning - people researching this have changed the goals and definitions of artificial intelligence more than they've changed their socks.
 
The second would be "would a machine consciousness be more intelligent than us?" since most SF tends to assume that all AI would be more intelligent than us.
 
The third would be "would an intelligent machine consciousness have a religion?" since that appears to be the main motivation for Cylons' fanaticism.
 
The forth would be "would a religious intelligent machine consciousness be malign?" since the result of that religious fanacticism is the genocide of humanity.
 
And finally "Would there be a fail-safe lockout or kill-switch override?"
 
I suspect the answer to each of those questions is "No", however:
 
1. The definitions of consciousness and sentience in the animal kingdom are something that results in fierce debate and these are linked to other attributes of the mind such as sapience (wisdom), self-awareness and intention. The arrogance of man is slowly beginning to recognise that these attributes may be present in (so called) lower lifeforms, though revelation of such tends to come as a great surprise when some animals are shown to have behavior that suggests they have human-like qualities. Opponents to the idea that (so called) lower lifeforms can have the same characteristics humans tend to refer to this as anthropomorphising - seeing similar behaviour and wrongly attributing it with human-like qualities. This is another round of the geocentric vs. heliocentric argument that threatens to move man away from being the centre of the Universe,and as such is percieved as a threat to existing religious beliefs. Once we get all "philosophical" on this progress inevitably stalls since there are no right or wrong answers in philosophy. What this means is that if we cannot decide whether (so called) lower lifeforms are sentient and self-aware then recognising (or even creating) that in a machine (and by "machine" I am refering to any artificially created artifact or construct, not just a mechanical deivce) will be equally as indecisive.
 
Artificially creating the attributes of intelligence, sapience, self-awareness and intentionality in machines is (to go back the my "arguments" against formulae as data compression) by algorithmic programming, which is simulation of the real thing, it is not the real thing itself. A simulation of intelligence is never going to achieve consciousness because even with adaptive programming (ie "learning") and neural networks it is still following a program. Even if we can successfully determine how the biological brain memorises and thinks using a mere 86 billion neurons replicating that artificially could prove to be impossible. [One thing we need to get past is the idea that the brain is a computer - that is a convenient analogy but inaccurate, the 86 billion neurons are not 86Gbytes of storage where memories (memory) and thinking (program/algorithms) are kept]. There are creatures (such as starfish) that posses a neural network but do not have a recognisable brain - these are predatory animals which traditionally means high level "intelligence" - they are not automotons that react to stimulus with a predefined action like the venus flytrap does for example.
 
2. Assuming we could overcome all the difficulties associated with creating an artificial "brain" that can achieve consciousness the probability that it would be more intelligent than us is small simply given the evidence of all natural lifeforms that have "intelligence" and "consciousness" - we don't know that any other lifeforms are more intelligent than us - several have larger brains, a few have larger brain to body mass ratios - so they alone are not an indication of intelligence, quite what marks us as different from neanderthals and bottlenosed dolphins has still to be discovered. Since we will be creating these artifically conscious machines to perform servile tasks then I suspect we will be smart enough to purposely limit the "intellegence" of any machine consciousness to the task in hand by simple expediency - we wouldn't breed an ultra intelligent sheep dog that questioned the need to marshal sheep on command so why do that for a machine.
 
3. Given that the intelligent machine consciousness (assuming that it is at least as intelligent as us) would know exactly who its creator was and why it was created I suspect that it would not need to invent religion to answer life's unanswerable questions. That's not to say we wouldn't polute its reasoning with our own religious beliefs, but I really hope we don't (not even with zen buddhism). [personnally I think the Cylons in BSG are a thinly veiled analogy for one particular branch of the abrahamic monotheistic religions that serves to be the "boggie man under the bed" of the story-arc - in the original series they were simply following their programming (the real Cylons being reptilian creatures who created the mechanical Cylons as soldiers)]
 
4. The malevolence of intelligent machine consciousnesses in SF stems from the idea that mankind is seen as a threat that has to be eradicated... Ermm Perhaps they are right.
 
5. Issac Asimov (and many SF authors since) made a career out of writing stories showing how his three laws of robotics can be broken. The notion behind all those is that human ingenuity is fallible and there is no such thing as a perfect fail-safe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2013 at 23:35
"A simulation of intelligence is never going to achieve consciousness because even with adaptive programming (ie "learning") and neural networks it is still following a program"

This sums up my gut feel on the matter and no, I've not read much about it, but that line between programmed functioning and actual independant thought seems large.  Regarding the religious aspect of the Cylons I just read an essay today stating that they are a representation of evangelical Christianity at its worst....thought that was the blogger's opinion and I'm not sure if that was the intent of the new show's creator.  Others have said that Kara was an "angel" of some sort after dying in season 3 so perhaps the writers were interested in such angles.  When I first watched the series I didn't pay much attention to the religious musings of 6....on the reviewing I will be watching for this.



As a side note I think this thread can be widened beyond technology, to discuss any aspect of the show.  I think it's kind of cool to have a thread for the many cool recent sci-fi series.  I will amend my OP to say as much.  Smile


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2013 at 07:35
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

"A simulation of intelligence is never going to achieve consciousness because even with adaptive programming (ie "learning") and neural networks it is still following a program"

This sums up my gut feel on the matter and no, I've not read much about it, but that line between programmed functioning and actual independant thought seems large.  Regarding the religious aspect of the Cylons I just read an essay today stating that they are a representation of evangelical Christianity at its worst....thought that was the blogger's opinion and I'm not sure if that was the intent of the new show's creator.  Others have said that Kara was an "angel" of some sort after dying in season 3 so perhaps the writers were interested in such angles.  When I first watched the series I didn't pay much attention to the religious musings of 6....on the reviewing I will be watching for this.
The concept of angels is a seductive one that is prevalent in fantasy stories throughout the history of mankind. Biblical angels and other mythological demi-gods are described as messengers and educators that are often shown as the cause of the wisdom and/or evil that mankind possesses - the tempting serpent of Eden in Genesis chapter 3; the giants (Nephilim) of Genesis chapter 6; the fallen angels of biblical mythology; Prometheus of Greek mythology; Loki in Norse mythology; the Tuatha Dé Danann of Celtic mythology; etc., etc. Other cultures elevated specific (ie important) humans to demi-god status giving them angel-like qualities and attributes simply to show that they are "not like normal men". This trend continues in all branches of SF: Paul Artreides in Dune, Valentine Smith in Stranger in a Strange Land, Dave Bowman in 2001, the First Ones in Babylon 5 (Kosh is seen as an angel of whatever religion the people believe in when they see him without his encounter suit), the Asgaerd of Star Gate SG1... I didn't follow BSG sufficiently to comment on whether Starbuck was an angel or not after her death - I suspect that it was one of those inconclusive (and possibly unconvincing) plot-twists that long-running serials often end with that has no rationale in the preceding story-arc, but the concepts of Battlestar closely parallelled the abrahamic religious mythology (thirteen tribes, monotheism vs pantheism, creationism, the golem, the promised land etc.).
 


Edited by Dean - August 17 2013 at 07:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2013 at 09:16
I caught religious twists in some of those examples....but the Asgard?  I did not catch that, thought they were simply a dying race (albeit vastly superior to ours). 

Not sure how much BSG  you watched but if you have not watched the Starbuck ending, nor intend to anytime soon, this clip is not very subtle in its intentions....inconclusive and unconvincing I'd agree, I found it uninspired and a bit of a cop out.  In fact I found the entire ending of BSG a complete letdown, esp in comparison to B5, which had more heart and emotion.  (I like some sentimentality between characters in my sci-fi....though I think many fans of sci-fi like things cooler and dryer) 

Spoilers....obviously


 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2013 at 10:04
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I caught religious twists in some of those examples....but the Asgard?  I did not catch that, thought they were simply a dying race (albeit vastly superior to ours).  
 
The Asgard (I guess I should stick to the SG1 spelling) obviously derive from Norse mythology (in the series they give rise to Norse mythology, whereas the Goa'uld merely adopted the form of extant Earth mythologies for purposes of coercion, though there is some blurring here as the Asgard could also have adopted an extant norse mythology and added to it). They are the elder race that are openly benevolent towards mankind, as opposed to the Ori who are malevolent, the Nox who are ambivalent and the Furlings who appear to be indolent [*joke*], in that sense they are as inteventionalist as any angel-types of earth's mythology and fulfil a similar rôle. Their physical appearance as the Greys of modern Ufology is obviously a long way removed from the heroic vikings of Norse mythology. They cannot ascend to beings of pure spirit or energy (aka beings of light in the abrahamic religions) because they had used technology to prolong their life but that does not make them any less "angel"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2013 at 10:24
Ok, yes I caught the Norse thing but had not equated it to angels in the same sense.  I can see that.  Yes, the Furlings.  I kept waiting for them to be brought into some focus in the series and as you know it was a long waitLOL.  I wonder if that indeed was a joke, or if the writers simply ran out of time and opportunity. 

I'm going to start watching Caprica soon, which while cancelled, supposedly contains some good insight (deeper exploration) into the role/intentions/motives of the Cylons and their creators.  Some reviewers say the series was better sci fi than the actual BSG.....less gunplay/action, more discussion and depth.  We'll see. 
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