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moshkito 
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 Posted: August 14 2013 at 13:48 |
 Dellinger wrote:
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Hey, I never said I considered improvisations to be crap, I even said I do enjoy them often enough... just not in the same way I like conventional written songs, and I won't often think "oh yeah, I want to hear such or so improv"... And I'm afraid I don't know those particular albums you mentioned, but I do have some albums with improvs. |
Not meant to be taken that way!
It was the same thing with many "beginning" actors, that kept thinking they had to understand the reason why every single line in the play was there ... and until the day that you get involved in a serious "meditation/improvisation" that lasts a couple of hours, you will never learn, or know, how to interpret lines and words ... you will always try to use some kind of imaginary idea in your head that changes every night! And your performances will be extremely inconsistent day in and out. This is what "advanced" acting classes are usually about. Trying to teach you to feel things, so you know how to respond without being told, and without having to thik about it.
Improvisation is an "acquired taste" ... but something that is more used in theater and film, for example, than it is in music. In many ways, music is not even an intuitive process or art ... because all the sublteties of "here and now" have been suplanted by ideas of then, and yesterday, and concepts and designs ... that are not about this moment! The great "improvisations" were about this "moment in time".
Edited by moshkito - August 14 2013 at 15:01
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: August 14 2013 at 14:38 |
How's this for improv. Maynard always encoursged young musicians to play on the outside. Wait for the bass solo.
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Wafflesyrup
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 03:31 |
Hercules wrote:
I'm sure improvisation is often used as the basis for composition, which is fine.
But when something is recorded or played live, I want the band to be totally rehearsed and note perfect and I don't want much improvisation. After all, when I had my new kitchen fitted, I didn't want the workman to say "well I just put all the bits where I felt like it at the time" do I? I want it all putting where I asked for it on the plan. |
But when you're using that kitchen to make love, what about then?
It's as though no one realizes that all music is bound by the same principles, improvisation is integral in traversing from point A to point B given the physics of music. No improvisation? No music.
I agree entirely with the idea that improvisation is composed music, except you're listening to a musician experience music, instead of relaying a preconceived idea which has little to nothing to do with their present state as a human being. This to me is musical dishonesty and is best kept in the practice area where one can further develop their ear and breadth of musical understanding instead of further diluting our artistic society with simple mimicry.
While the whole presentation may certainly be emotionally involving outside of its origination, the Art which takes place between a band of musicians is truly what it's about. To think otherwise is just being selfish, which hey, we all are from time to time.
Does art lie within the result of a design? Or within the act of designing itself? I fear we'll never see the day when society stops making a distinction between artists and people - "The Day Humanity Learned to Breathe as a Whole."
And a big 'HMPH!' to anyone with the gall to proclaim themselves a King Crimson fan yet dislike their "improvised" material. Bunch of close-minded poppycock if you ask me.
Edited by Wafflesyrup - August 15 2013 at 04:43
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Dean
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 03:52 |
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Hercules wrote:
I'm sure improvisation is often used as the basis for composition, which is fine.
But when something is recorded or played live, I want the band to be totally rehearsed and note perfect and I don't want much improvisation. After all, when I had my new kitchen fitted, I didn't want the workman to say "well I just put all the bits where I felt like it at the time" do I? I want it all putting where I asked for it on the plan. |
But when you're using that kitchen to make love, what about then? |
Then you'll probably be barred for life from that branch of Home Depot, but on the bright side, the cctv footage will be on YouTube.
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What?
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 03:59 |
Nothing like a good fondling session in the kitchen area.
Edited by Guldbamsen - August 15 2013 at 03:59
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Wafflesyrup
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 04:50 |
Dean wrote:
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Hercules wrote:
I'm sure improvisation is often used as the basis for composition, which is fine.
But when something is recorded or played live, I want the band to be totally rehearsed and note perfect and I don't want much improvisation. After all, when I had my new kitchen fitted, I didn't want the workman to say "well I just put all the bits where I felt like it at the time" do I? I want it all putting where I asked for it on the plan. |
But when you're using that kitchen to make love, what about then? |
Then you'll probably be barred for life from that branch of Home Depot, but on the bright side, the cctv footage will be on YouTube. |
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The Pessimist
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 07:57 |
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Dean wrote:
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Hercules wrote:
I'm sure improvisation is often used as the basis for composition, which is fine.
But when something is recorded or played live, I want the band to be totally rehearsed and note perfect and I don't want much improvisation. After all, when I had my new kitchen fitted, I didn't want the workman to say "well I just put all the bits where I felt like it at the time" do I? I want it all putting where I asked for it on the plan. |
But when you're using that kitchen to make love, what about then? |
Then you'll probably be barred for life from that branch of Home Depot, but on the bright side, the cctv footage will be on YouTube. |
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This made my afternoon On topic in response to Wafflesyrup, improvisation always consists on premeditated ideas, otherwise where else do the ideas come from? A magical musical ether? All you do when you improvise is let them out of your brain and then develop on them.
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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rogerthat
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 08:49 |
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^^^ I think he probably means trying to fit the music to some idea of what is good instead of going with the spontaneous flow. But that may not necessarily be how even bands that preferred tightly composing everything like Genesis worked either. They probably began with an improvisation and then kept adding elements to it till they were satisfied...and the luxury of recording in a studio allows them that option. But there is these days a tendency to second guess either the audience's tastes or the musician's own...to start with some generic arrangement that they have already decided is good and then go from there. It used to be that arrangements adorned a raw melodic/harmonic idea but arrangements have become the most important thing somehow these days. I am not saying everybody does it - mercifully, because it gives some more options for somebody like me - but it's become the norm now.
Edited by rogerthat - August 15 2013 at 08:51
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Wafflesyrup
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Posted: August 15 2013 at 22:11 |
The Pessimist wrote:
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Dean wrote:
Wafflesyrup wrote:
Hercules wrote:
I'm sure improvisation is often used as the basis for composition, which is fine.
But when something is recorded or played live, I want the band to be totally rehearsed and note perfect and I don't want much improvisation. After all, when I had my new kitchen fitted, I didn't want the workman to say "well I just put all the bits where I felt like it at the time" do I? I want it all putting where I asked for it on the plan. |
But when you're using that kitchen to make love, what about then? |
Then you'll probably be barred for life from that branch of Home Depot, but on the bright side, the cctv footage will be on YouTube. |
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This made my afternoon On topic in response to Wafflesyrup, improvisation always consists on premeditated ideas, otherwise where else do the ideas come from? A magical musical ether? All you do when you improvise is let them out of your brain and then develop on them. |
I agree. Perhaps I articulated my point poorly.
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moshkito
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Posted: August 21 2013 at 08:55 |
rogerthat wrote:
...
But there is these days a tendency to second guess either the audience's tastes or the musician's own...to start with some generic arrangement that they have already decided is good and then go from there.
...
It used to be that arrangements adorned a raw melodic/harmonic idea but arrangements have become the most important thing somehow these days.
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In many ways, music history and top ten go together like good bed partners. They all copy the same formula and process and design, and are not necessarily about people's tastes, though this, on occasion, faces the wrath of the public and changes for a few years, and this happened on the late 60's that brought out so much new music!
The arrangements, keep coming back to the same thing, or just extended in between the same thing ... so the same idea is 5 minutes long, instead of 3 minutes long ... and this is the reason why so much "prog" doesn't really hit me as fine ... it's just another song!
But there is a lot of stuff out there that does not live by the format ... and calling that a "song", is weird, because there is no "format" that it fits into, and I think this is the type of stuff that will make changes in the music history, otherwise, it is all the same and nothing new under the sun and we still get our tans!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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kingcrimsonfan
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Posted: August 24 2013 at 10:30 |
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I really don't get why people on here are opposed to improvisation. Improvisation has created some amazing music like Faust's Faust IV. If bands do not improvise, all progressive rock will sound exactly the same ex. transatlantic and spock's beard. Isn't innovating and improvising the basis of progressive rock and what makes the genre unique?
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progbethyname
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Posted: August 24 2013 at 11:41 |
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^ its one of them. You are right about that I think. Improvisation or 'free association' is important in music. As a musician, you gotta wave your 'freak flags' now then and see what you come up with instead of just boxing yourself up and sticking to one program or vision....how boring I think.
Also, let's look at an artist like say, Devin Townsend or. Trent REZNOR. You think they just sit around 'picking their asses' hoping the music will just fall into their brains and fingers? Noway. Look at the amount of remixes and demos they both have put out. It's a ton! All done through improv.
Anyway. So important.
Also improv for live show always seems especially interesting. Not always good, but a treat to hear and see cause its not always done. ;)
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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moshkito
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Posted: August 24 2013 at 12:51 |
kingcrimsonfan wrote:
I really don't get why people on here are opposed to improvisation. Improvisation has created some amazing music like Faust's Faust IV. If bands do not improvise, all progressive rock will sound exactly the same ex. transatlantic and spock's beard. Isn't innovating and improvising the basis of progressive rock and what makes the genre unique? |
The more I listen to Faust, and then see some of them in the Krautrock special, the more I think this is not designed as an improvisation per se ... but simply a way to do something else, and hope that one or two things come out of it ... when you see them fooling around playing along whatever they find, you wonder ... is this what the "improvisation" is all about ... just goofing around and having fun, which "might" ... just might! ... end up as a part of the piece of music. Why would you pay for FAUST, when you can have the same thing done by your kids? Now you have an issue with definition!
This is, quite different, from a musical process, or an acting process -- the examples of which I tend to use a lot here! Why? ... there is a method, or end result that is required for the use of the exercise, and while I personally love the stream of consciousness and total free flow of the results, in the end, if it is not applied to the art, as something with more depth and understanding, the whole thing is wasted on the stage or the film, or in the music!
A lot of rock bands do improvisations, but they are tied to a "form", which prevents them from getting better, and Transatlantic doing this is a bad joke, because you have a bad drummer that can not improvise, though he can count really well, and he can add that extra little tick and make that 8th, sound like a 16th! ... big deal ... that's just "mechanics" ... not FEEL ... and rarely is it good for the music itself. He's a very good technical and tight drummer ... he's the worst improvisational one, and I would state right off the bat the old (bad!) adgage ... he needs to go get stoned, and learn how to feel the music, instead of relying on his technique ... and allow the feel to add to his arsenal ... because right now he has no feel ... he's doing too much empty music with poor lyrics! That supposedly make it all better -- for fools like you and I!
Rock bands, are the worst at improvisation, since the only thing they can do is go around a note, or a chord! And most rock drummers these days, are even worse ... they don't even know how to get out of the groove and get back in it! Which means, that improvisation for the group, is already messed up right from the start.
This is what makes Yes, Pink Floyd, Amon Duul 2, and some of the earlier psychedelic folks so interesting and important that helped identify and create the progressive mold of things ... and it was, generally, by extending the musical piece that did it first, and since then, it has been sanitized with bad clorox into a 5 minute song with a special effect that we end up calling "prog", but is anything but progressive ... though we think that long cut sometimes means progressive and it doesn't! Iron Butterfly was a good example, and so were the long meandering things that the Grateful Dead did! All of which were more about just tripping with the sound of the music, than it was anything else! The others, had more in their music, than just a let's get stoned and then get laid, to it!
Edited by moshkito - August 24 2013 at 12:52
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: August 24 2013 at 20:03 |
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I like free-styling...
Scootely-beep-bop-bow
and improv...
Sha-dooby dooby do...
in my prog archives posts
Deetin-dee-dee-bomp!
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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progbethyname
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Posted: August 25 2013 at 12:07 |
^ sounds like a Jazz man to me.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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CPicard
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Posted: August 25 2013 at 17:00 |
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Sounds like a Scatman to me. His dance-music hit singles scared me for life.
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TODDLER
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Posted: August 27 2013 at 13:59 |
The most basic thought enters my mind about improvisation and it's for the musician to question themselves as to what they can accomplish during improvisation. Are they accomplished enough to play 4 different ethnic modes, an influence of Jazz or Classical? Are they willing and able to make transitions during improvisation and attract the listener who may be in a universal state or mind set? If the improvisation revolves around a musician who does not plan and should, then it may come across as noodling. Unlike Mel Collins considered by Fripp to be a young student of gymnastics during the developing stages..and considering that the manic sax fit considerably in Crimso's style, many up and coming professional players leave out chapters of their musical education. If they are improvising in a Prog piece...they may not begin the solo with a melodic feel...which most ofthe time is vital to the piece of music. Such as starting the improvisation with a Classical influenced melody and proceeding to build the solo through transcending on the guitar from the 1st fret to even the 24th. Every musician programs patterns into their mind from childhood, teen years, etc.. and the expression the musician gives to those patterns is they key to being universal at improvisation. Everyone on this site and globally seems to know that improvisation is a means to express yourself. yet not every musician recorded in history had any business improvising and it became the destruction of music. You must at least..be decent at doing it first, otherwise you are sounding like a little plastic robot boy. During improvisation you are not suppose to be thinking about music.
If you have already been schooled...then that is when you release the constant thought of music theory and become an artist through expressing yourself or your version....creation. There are and were many musicians in the Progressive Rock world who never reached these levels and instead they focused more on composition. There are ususally 1 or 2 fine musicians who handle improvisation in prog bands.If they don't have the right approach by not attempting to constantly exceed beyond their abilities and filling their practice of scales into a piece ...which is ignorant and self centered, childish...you know what I mean? It is then that the music suffers. Miles Davis had a unique approach to improvisation. Anything coming across like noodling...like 3 swirly keyboard sounds were condensed into a bizzare drum pattern and a trumpet with echo adding a tri-tone melody. It's not usually colored that way in prog. Only with a few of the most impeccable bands.
This is 1 very bad result that has occured in the prog world: "Oh I just learned this new "Jazz riff" and I'm sitting in the studio witnessing the musician placing it into 4 different original prog pieces. Wait! No! Just use it in one piece for the album so our music doesn't come across as noodling throughout. But ,,I do believe this may be why many people dislike improvisation as a rule and it's because they are listening to ignorant musicians who are placing their studies into the music. It's because many of them are excited to learn complexity ..yet are dense and fail to develop at a slow pace, have no respect for the writing, and structure. When you're listening to a seasoned musician who knows and feels when to play and when not , the music becomes timeless.
Edited by TODDLER - August 27 2013 at 14:19
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 27 2013 at 15:39 |
Just wanted to say that I really treasure the two very different posts from Moshkito and TODDLER. They both resonate with me on a personal level. Thanks you guys.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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TODDLER
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Posted: August 27 2013 at 15:55 |
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thanks for your support
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TODDLER
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Posted: August 28 2013 at 12:53 |
I didn't mean to come across snooty. If you're a younger musician that lacks experience in difficult to master areas, then you should hold back and allow nature to take it's course. It doesn't mean you won't reach the levels of John McLauglin one day. It's merely the fine logic or simple teaching that you should not break your musical barriers until you have devoted long hours of practice in a room , alone, to master it before bleeding it to the public.
With Birds of Fire by Mahavishnu Orchestra there is a theory that McLaughlin was inspired by his guru or another rumour states that it was spirituality in general. In which case forming the analogy of the music deriving from some other place, spiritual level...and chanelling through a human being. When I was 17 years old, I read an interview in a magazine with Billy Cobham who claimed that this concept of the music being inspired by some spiritual force was B.S. That the members of Mahavishnu were a binding unit of creative forces which burned out over a 2 year period of touring/recording. Birds of Fire was innovative to prog music and widely defined as Jazz/Fusion. There is something very strange and dark about the music that expresses something other than that identity. The improvisation on Birds of Fire has a mysterious element that will not unfold. You can study all music , as much as possible...from other cultures and you will stumble on to the foundation of McLaughlin's influences. You can play along with the album note for note and best yet...you can add or adapt some of the style to your own vocabulary. The phrasing or notes played during the improvisation opens up a door in your mind. If you believe in a door or passage that can be reached when improvising on an instrument?
I am not really interested in following the path of a guru, but there is something in the bloodline of a seasoned musician who has played since childhood. To be exact..it's unknown to a majority of people who are not born with natural talent. It's quite unknown and yet people see something which channels through a musician when they improvise. I can understand and relate to it feeling like an "out of the body" experience. Basically it feels like this: You are very schooled, you have composed, you have adapted influences to your vocabulary, you have gained the attention in a live performance , they are picking up on how natural you're playing is and now they want to know what is drawing you in or how can you escape the planet like that? Everyone wants to know what you're thinking about as you go further inward. They paid to see it. Then when you're lying in bed after the show, you feel scared because you actually don't know how or whatever it is that channels through you. That is a huge mystery in improvising. Once you know your instrument ....your mind will command you to pick up the instrument at any given moment. As if you feel surprised and you lack controlling your inner desire. A calling. You begin to improvise in a single note style or naturally placing strange melodic chord voicings together. It feels channeled and I have no other words due to my lack of knowledge about the spiritual world.
I have met guitarists on the road who couldn't read a note of music. They played Jazz , Progressive Rock, and figured out Classical pieces without reading the transcription...practically perfect. So....there is something else to consider besides theory. Although theory is important to rely on as a source of music making sense to many, it is quite seperate from what is defined as the all and end result of the musicians creations. The creation can be written down for an orchestra to follow. Theory is vital in that case and being taught by a master will help you to expand musically diverse when the creations surface and you travel to the dark hole or unknown spiritual force. Other cases document that some musicians who do not read, hear everything and their hands fall naturally in place to play it. This can easily occur after learning the basics and everything feels second nature. Sometimes a musician is in touch with the forces of nature. I suppose I still question these observations, but as a musician since childhood, I must render that there is another place a musician travels to which feels powerful and unexplainable.
Edited by TODDLER - August 29 2013 at 08:30
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Improvisation
