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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 08:16
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 

What does that have to do with anything? I'm saying that your reference frame at the speed of light is kind of f'd up so it makes little sense to talk about seeing anything within it.
And at any rate, even admitting that wondering what travelling at the speed of light might 'look like' is physically nonsense and (as far as we can tell today) even a "non-scientific question", when we come to discussing how reasonably sci-fi books or movies depict such situations, it is legitimate to check how far can we get as a thought experiment.

For example it is not entirely unacceptable to have a thought such as (following the previous example of Sirius for consistency):
Let's say we travel to Sirius, for simplicity let's round its distance from Earth as exactly 9 light years.
The Sirius we see from Earth just at the moment of leaving is the Sirius of 9 years ago (Earth or Sirius time assuming for simplicity that Earth and Sirius don't move relative to each other at all).
Assuming that we can depart and arrive at light speed without any acceleration / deceleration (as a photon would) and we travel to Sirius at light speed, we will arrive there in 9 years Earth or Sirius time.
When we arrive, the Earth we will see from Sirius is the Earth of 9 years ago (Earth or Sirius time).
It follows that the Earth we will see on arrival is exactly the same as the Earth we saw on departure. We will see ourselves departing (and consequently since the same applies for any intermediate distance, we will simultaneously see ourselves during the whole trip, from our departure until arrival, somehow we will see a 'superposition of all our trip in a single image'.

While this is clearly unphysical for any massive object such as ourselves, there is nothing wrong in the logic itself, it is in accord with Special Relativity.





If this were true, then the speed of light in your reference frame would be zero. But the speed of light must be constant in all reference frames. This just doesn't make physical sense.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 08:26
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

 

If this were true, then the speed of light in your reference frame would be zero. But the speed of light must be constant in all reference frames. This just doesn't make physical sense.
I'm not saying it's "true", but how would you break the paradox otherwise?
Assuming complete vacuum so light speed is undoubtedly defined, Earth and Sirius do not move at all respect to each other and there's no acceleration / deceleration involved.
At the moment you leave Earth, you see Sirius how it was 9 years ago.
At the moment you arrive in Sirius, you see Earth how it was 9 years ago.
What do you make of it, except that assuming that light has been travelling "just next to you" so you did not "see" any change at all on how does Earth looks like during the trip?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 08:36
Are you surprised that you created a paradox when you whilly nilly stipulate travel at the speed of light and on top of that want to ignore the effects of acceleration to / deceleration from that speed?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 08:41
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Ermm no. The light we see left after us, maybe only a septillionth of a second after, but it left after. At no point in the journey would we ever see ourselves and we would never see ourselves at any point in the journey. The light that left Earth at the same time we did arrived at Sirius at the same time we did, even if you decelerated from c to 0 in 0 seconds, the light travelling with you would have passed before we could see it.
The Earth to Sirius example was just to provide some physical case for the thought experiment, you don't need to think that you 'depart' from somewhere and 'arrive' at somewhere else, that instinctively involves some kind of acceleration and deceleration that light (in the vacuum) does simply not require. The effect I was alluding to is that, by definition, if you could travel at the speed of light, light travels at the same speed as you do. Therefore, even if I reckon that this is not a physically sensible question, at any 3-D space point in the trip you would see the same light as you would see anywhere in your past journey at any other 3-D space point. This is somehow the meaning that at c time does not get "experienced", even if surely photons travel through spacetime at a definite speed, they surely visit different 3-D space points, but time is irrelevant because all those 3-D space points are simultaneous from the point of view of the photon.
It does not matter, your thought experiment is still in error. To see those photons you would need to overtake them and since they are travelling at the same speed as you you can never do that. However, to an observer on Sirius what you describe is sort of almost true - 9 years after you depart earth they will see you at every point in the journey simultaneously as a continuously line of light between Earth and Sirus BUT they would only see it for for a 1/25th of a second (assuming their persistence of vision is the same as ours and their sensitivity to light was incredibly high) - HOWEVER the time that line of light would be visible is infinitesimally short (the duration would probably be the length of your ship divided by the speed of light). SO, in reality they would see you disappear from Earth and instantaneously reappear on Sirius.
 
 
 
We can never see ourselves in the present no matter how fast we travel. We can never overtake the light we radiate and/or reflect.
Light travels at 300,000km/s, and takes 3.3nS to travel 1m.
So if you stand up and look down at your feet those are not your feet in the present, they are your feet approximately 6nS in the past, they are a younger version of your feet. (Your nether-region would be a little older, your nose is probably the oldest thing you can see of yourself without poking your finger in your eye)
Similarly if you look in a mirror you are seeing a reflection of you at a time in the past (2 x the distance to the mirror x 3.3nS).
 
 


Edited by Dean - July 29 2013 at 08:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 09:14

I came to "sci-fi" very late. Mostly after 15 and I came to America, which means I still needed at least 10 more years to learn English, apply it and understand things. That, means a lot of movies and tv, just didn't make it for me ... I could see those painted cardboard sets in "Star-Trek", or the same thing behind Judy Garland, and it was a total turn-off for me. No woman, I have ever been with, or fantasized with, has ever been cardboard, and silly colored ... thus my view of things is ... probably overly "literary" and expecting to see some meaning here and there, and less "scientific", since that is a language that was harder for me to grab after English ... I could not make it past Calculus at UCSB 4 different times ... the wording just didn't translate, and I did not understand it, the conceptuality of the science and the story began falling apart, and for me, the past 5 years, the appreciation of the "metal/mechanical" (so to speak) has lost its appeal.

Sci-Fi, for me, was no different than "another world" out there. So, when seeing "Forbidden Planet", one of the dew pure "sci-fi" films, where a lot of the things thought and done then, were simply out of this world -- Robbie, not withstanding, of course! -- and quite literary, as were other things at the time, that glamorized the genre, which in many ways, was coming up to par with a lot of the science and technology at the time ... no one knew, or could conceive of an atom bomb, and all of a sudden, the scientific knowledge of it, is all over the media and movies!

I came from a world, where there was less of a "let's make and believe" that Hollywood helped create, and thus, a lot of things that lacked the "reality" didn't make sense to me, and looked stupid and off kilter. Not only sci-fi, mind you, but just as much in any of the other arts! Like saying there was no "sci-fi" in art, or music ... there was plenty, though it might not have been as "visible" as it eventually became. The synthesizer, for example, was originally, the first "sci-fi" instrument in "Forbidden Planet". Some might argue that calling that thing a synthesizer would be to stretch the truth!

The hard part, for me, is, the rock music and movie style of things that goes ... simon says ... and you believe it, and think it is good, because of how it was said. Thus a "lyric" or expression becomes more important than the whole event, or person behind it, and that distorts the equation just enough to make it quite difficult to see where the source is, and what the person behind it is really all about. After all these years, you still don't know Mick Jagger, and anything about him ... as a person, or what he believes in, other than some kind of a hedonistic life-style ... and you really think that he is that vain? Sci-Fi makes this equation tougher, as you want to believe a character, but you can't help not handle their environment.

That said, I have read some nice things, Heinlein, Zelazny (spelling), Bradbury, and a few others, though, if I put this on a parallel with the other arts, I think that literature is the one art that helped bring this to the forefront a lot more, though you could say that tv and film helped make it famous. I liked Arthur C Clarke as a writer, and not as involved in film or anywhere else. I seriously doubt anyone will ever have the guts and gall to film Childhood's End ... because in the end, it is a serious indictment of society, and its idealism.

That said, there are some shows I have enjoyed that fit this mode well ... the Stargate series, despite its repetitive nature, had some nice things and acting. I happen to have liked "Red Dwarf" that was funnier with its cardboard sets. Babylon 5 had some grand things and designs, but was horribly directed by folks that didn't know directing to make it better, specially considering the quality of actors they had in their shows.



Edited by moshkito - July 29 2013 at 12:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 10:50
Hi,
 
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

What technology is to science fiction, magic is to fantasy. That's how I always thought of it.
Except that 100 years later ... it's reality, and not technology or magic!
...
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Also (incidentally) looking back to where you came from while travelling faster than the speed of light you would still see nothing, you would not see events from the past because you are travelling faster than the lightwaves that carry that information, you would be overtaking those photons, so they would be moving away from your eyes, not towards them.
 
Like telling folks about the "light" ... because when you are "inside" the light, there is no "dark" ... you can only "see" the light all around you and that is the "universe" you are in! It's the same "physics" process!
 
In your case, since it is moving, yeah ... it's going away, and even the speed itself is negligeable, because the distance is getting bigger.
 
Funny thing, is that when you go back and read some of that "occult" literature, you find things like this that are really cool and make sense. As Ep said, magic became fantasy, and I added, and later, the reality!
 
 


Edited by moshkito - July 29 2013 at 10:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 11:22
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Funny thing, is that when you go back and read some of that "occult" literature, you find things like this that are really cool and make sense. As Ep said, magic became fantasy, and I added, and later, the reality!
 
 
Erm. Nope. Magic is still magic, magic never becomes reality because magic is not real.  Rob said What technology is to science fiction, magic is to fantasy, he did not say magic became fantasy (and thus technology became SF?) What he meant was that science fiction uses technology in the same way that fantasy fiction uses magic. The inference there is if you accept the magic of fantasy fiction (for example in Harry Potter) without explanation or rationalisation then you should accept the technology of science fiction in the same way. If Dorothy can be transported to Oz by a tornado then Jean Luc Piccard can be transported to Rigel 4 by hyperspace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 12:34
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I came to "sci-fi" very The synthesizer, for example, was originally, the first "sci-fi" instrument in "Forbidden Planet". Some might argue that calling that thing a synthesizer would be to stretch the truth!
Calling that thing a synthesizer would be to stretch the truth.
 
Calling that thing that thing would also be to stretch the truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 13:13
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Funny thing, is that when you go back and read some of that "occult" literature, you find things like this that are really cool and make sense. As Ep said, magic became fantasy, and I added, and later, the reality!
 
 
Erm. Nope. Magic is still magic, magic never becomes reality because magic is not real. 
...
 
I was more thinking that 100 years ago, the idea of a rocket to the moon was a nice story and idea ... and the reality became true later.
 
It was Sci-Fi at one time, and it became reality ... when things are looked at over a wide/large period of time.
 
Why is it that all discussions have to be strictly about this very second, and not the one that is already passed? And the future second is ... conjecture and sometimes magic and sometimes something else ... that we do not have words for it, yet!
 
But I can tell you that Duck Dodgers will disagree with you , Sirrrrr, and that he invented the rockets 30 years earlier that Nasa stole the plans and finally built it for them! And Bugs never got a carrot for it!
 
There ... magic IS magic ... TO THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW IT OR SEE IT. Because otherwise it is "real" ... and this is the main difference between the folks that "see it" and the folks that would rather imagine something else. It would be the difference between the "knowable" and the "unknowable", but it's hard enough to get past the semantics for us to agree on anything ... what the heck!
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 14:28
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Funny thing, is that when you go back and read some of that "occult" literature, you find things like this that are really cool and make sense. As Ep said, magic became fantasy, and I added, and later, the reality!
 
 
Erm. Nope. Magic is still magic, magic never becomes reality because magic is not real. 
...
 
I was more thinking that 100 years ago, the idea of a rocket to the moon was a nice story and idea ... and the reality became true later.
 
It was Sci-Fi at one time, and it became reality ... when things are looked at over a wide/large period of time.
 
Why is it that all discussions have to be strictly about this very second, and not the one that is already passed? And the future second is ... conjecture and sometimes magic and sometimes something else ... that we do not have words for it, yet!
Because this thread is about now not then. And a rocket to the moon wasn't seen as magic 100 years ago because it was balistic (not magic) and that was known technology (not magic).
 
If you want a thread called "Things Today That Were Magic Then" then go make one. I suggest you start with "the scrying window".
 
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
But I can tell you that Duck Dodgers will disagree with you , Sirrrrr, and that he invented the rockets 30 years earlier that Nasa stole the plans and finally built it for them! And Bugs never got a carrot for it!
And Duck Dodgers was a parody of Buck Rogers (12 years earlier) so Bug's was a plagiarist and the owners of Amazing Stories would have prior claim, if it were not for Jules Verne, HG Wells and Edgar Rice Burroughs, though I suspect a Chinese armourer called Tang Fu 1000 years before Jules Verne would win the prize.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
 
There ... magic IS magic ... TO THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW IT OR SEE IT. Because otherwise it is "real" ... and this is the main difference between the folks that "see it" and the folks that would rather imagine something else. It would be the difference between the "knowable" and the "unknowable", but it's hard enough to get past the semantics for us to agree on anything ... what the heck!
 
It's not semantics. It's not not having a name for a phenomenon that we do not understand, or an explanation for a fictional or factual technology that defies known understanding. Magic is either an illusion, (a conjouring trick, slight of hand, prestidigitation, trickery, [philosophy Wink]) or it is thaumaturgy (miracle, sorcery, alchemy, astrology, necromancy, witchery,). The former is not real, it is a trick that we are happy to be fooled by in the name of entertainment. You are welcome to believe in the latter, but that also is not real.
 
Think of it this way - many of the concepts (technologies) in Science Fiction have come "true" (not that they were ever actually "false"). However, none of the magic in Fantasy Fiction has ever come "true".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 18:43
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Are you surprised that you created a paradox when you whilly nilly stipulate travel at the speed of light and on top of that want to ignore the effects of acceleration to / deceleration from that speed?
Why didn't the photon have any luggage?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
...it was travelling light.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2013 at 19:02
Stargate loved to do alternate reality shows where the characters would all be existing in different realities at the same time, but living different lives....occasionally they would cross over into the other reality.   I'm assuming this is another example of writers delving low on the plausibility index.  Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 05:54
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Stargate loved to do alternate reality shows where the characters would all be existing in different realities at the same time, but living different lives....occasionally they would cross over into the other reality.   I'm assuming this is another example of writers delving low on the plausibility index.  Big smile
As implausible as it is, this has also its roots in some serious science, called the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics says that (at least) very small objects exist in a superposition of different states at once, and this has been proved for very small things like sub-atomic particles or atoms, they can be in 2 places at once or in 2 different energy states at once. Standard interpretations say that these superposed states are fleeting situations in our universe which quickly vanish through a process called decoherence, but MWI maintains that these different coexisting states are actually neighbouring parallel universes.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 06:37
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Stargate loved to do alternate reality shows where the characters would all be existing in different realities at the same time, but living different lives....occasionally they would cross over into the other reality.   I'm assuming this is another example of writers delving low on the plausibility index.  Big smile
As implausible as it is, this has also its roots in some serious science, called the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics says that (at least) very small objects exist in a superposition of different states at once, and this has been proved for very small things like sub-atomic particles or atoms, they can be in 2 places at once or in 2 different energy states at once. Standard interpretations say that these superposed states are fleeting situations in our universe which quickly vanish through a process called decoherence, but MWI maintains that these different coexisting states are actually neighbouring parallel universes.

Not sure what you mean by "implausible as it is" ... quantum mechanics does not predict multiple worlds or universes (nor does string theory), events in this universe are not dependant upon the existence of parallel universes so we cannot predict their existence. Superposition of a particle across multiple universes locks the particle into the same "location" in each theoretical universe, in this multiple worlds interpretation hypothesis these unverses are not Alternate Realities. (which was the eact nature of Jim's question).
 
 
______________________________________________________________________________________________
 
 
 
Multiple Worlds, The Mutilverse, Alternate Realities, Parallel Unverses and Mutilple Dimmensions are all hypothesis that cannot be proven or disproven; like a religion once the idea has been proposed it is impossible to unpropose it and since it can neither be proven or disproven the idea has to persist for people to argue for or against, even though (in this instance at least) we can prove that someone just "invented" it.
 
Adding extra dimesions to our existing universe does not create new multiple universes - a 4th dimension to our existing three does not create a stacked layering of parallel universes in this new 4th dimension (imagine a adding a 3rd dimension to a 2D universe - you are not creating a stack of 2D unverses like a ream of paper, but extending the existing 2D universe into a third dimension), which we would need to invents a new word for, like kemth for example, (giving an object length, height, depth and kemth). If (we follow M-theory and) our universe contains 10 or 11 dimensions that does not mean that other 3D universe could exist in dimensions 4-6 or 6-9 or 5-7 or 4,7,10 or any combinations thereof; what it means is there could be other 10 or 11 dimenstiional m-branes that contains other 3D universes, but again, these would not be connected to our universe in any way, they would be parallel in the sense that they "run along side us and never cross", but they would not be parallel in the sense of "a thing that is similar or analogous to us" so they would not be Alternate Realities.
 
 
 
 
 
/edit _________________ line added to emphasise that only the first paragraph was in response to Gerard, the other two are in response to Jim's initial question. Stern Smile 


Edited by Dean - July 30 2013 at 07:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:07
MWI has nothing to do with the extra dimensions of string theory. It does not postulate extra dimensions, it just postulates that we call "wave collapse" in quantum theory when we perform a measurement is actually a splitting of the universe into as many possible outcomes the measurement has.

It is not testable (at least so far nobody came up with a suitable test) but it was proposed by a serious physicist and it is still respected by several serious scientists as the less enigmatic of all possible interpretations to the quantum measurement problem.

One of its most fervent proponents, David Deutsch (highly respected for his work in quantum computation) views the double-slit experiment and quantum computation as the "proof" that parallel universes exist, I'm not defending his view, only quoting him:

"According to the many worlds interpretation, each particle interferes with another particle going through the other slit. What other particle? Another particle (actually the "same particle") in a neighbouring universe. In my opinion, the argument for the many worlds was won with the double-slit experiment. It reveals interference between neighbouring universes, the root of all quantum phenomena."

and quantum computation

"One day, a quantum computer will be built which does more simultaneous calculations than there are particles in the Universe. Since the Universe as we see it lacks the computational resources to do the calculations, where are they being done? It can only be in other universes. Quantum computers share information with huge numbers of versions of themselves throughout the multiverse. Quantum computers are the first machines humans have ever built to exploit the multiverse directly. At the moment, even the biggest quantum computers can only work their magic on about 6 bits of information, which means they exploit copies of themselves in 26 universes-that's just 64 of them. Because the computational feats of such computers are puny, people can still choose to ignore the multiverse. But something will happen when the number of parallel calculations becomes very large. If the number is 64, people can shut their eyes but if it's 1064, they will no longer be able to pretend."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:22
So? It's still not an alternate reality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:30
Yes it is, if we make a measurement, say we measure the spin of an electron which outcomes can be either up or down. MWI says at at the moment of the measurement the universe splits in 2 alternate universes, both of them as "real" as the other one, one in which the measurement turns to be up and one in which the measurement turns to be down.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:38
It's worth clarifying that the term "multiverse" in MWI is not the same as its most common use referring to "eternal inflation" scenarios ("bubble" universes not resembling each other).
In MWI it really refers to "parallel universes", variations of each other in which events have different outcomes.
Because of this in modern texts about MWI it is more often called "many-worlds" rather than "multiverse".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 07:53
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Yes it is, if we make a measurement, say we measure the spin of an electron which outcomes can be either up or down. MWI says at at the moment of the measurement the universe splits in 2 alternate universes, both of them as "real" as the other one, one in which the measurement turns to be up and one in which the measurement turns to be down.
There is nothing to say that the other (hypothetical) universe is real. Once a state of spin has been determined there is nothing to say the opposite state persists in an alternate universe. That is the problem with metatheories - it is not that "nobody came up with a suitable test" but that it is unprovable and unfalsifiable. The statement "at moment of the measurement the universe splits in 2 alternate universes" and the statement  "at moment of the measurement the universe continues as a single universe" are equal - just as "at moment of the measurement the universe splits in 2 alternate universes, one of which is made of rice krispies" is also equal.
 
So that's still a supposition based upon a hypothesis which is nothing more than a conjecture. It does not predict Alternate Realities.


Edited by Dean - July 30 2013 at 07:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2013 at 08:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Are you surprised that you created a paradox when you whilly nilly stipulate travel at the speed of light and on top of that want to ignore the effects of acceleration to / deceleration from that speed?
Why didn't the photon have any luggage?
 
 
 
...it was travelling light.


I laughed way too hard at that.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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