Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - "Freedom" thread or something
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closed"Freedom" thread or something
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 8384858687 294>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
manofmystery View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 20:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.


Time always wins.
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.


"Their laws?"

Who is they?
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:38
It's easy to despise compulsory contribution to the society when you never needed the services it provides.
I don't like to talk about it but I'm in sickness leave for 10 months now, and I'm f*k glad that I can still receive some income from the social security, otherwise I would probably be homeless by now. I doubt that with my income I would have ever decided to take a private insurance that would have offered me the same coverage, they are expensive and you always tend to think that 'this will not happen to me' so you prefer enjoying your money rather than spending it in an insurance you doubt you will ever need.

When you have a lot of money then it's no problem, you take insurances, but for the many people earning just about enough to live decently, it's very hard to take the decision to spend some of their hardly earned money in insurances, they always hope that disaster will never strike them, but disaster strikes to someone, and then those unlucky ones become miserable if they did not have insurances. A kind of compulsory insurance is not that bad, I tell you, and taxes for social security, healthcare etc are just that, a compulsory insurance.

That part of the money gets misused or goes to pockets who do not deserve it? sure, no doubt about it. Let's try to avoid that as much as possible by more stringent control tools, but going the Libertarian way is ensuring misery for many people who will not have the determination to insure themselves against the many risks life poses.
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.
My 2012 List
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 09:57
I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:42
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.


It's fallacious to think that social security and Medicare is charity from the government.  It isn't.  It's the people's money.

Ah, so then you're for Social Security and Medicare then?  Which means you're for some form of government/taxation then?
My 2012 List
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:34
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.


It's fallacious to think that social security and Medicare is charity from the government.  It isn't.  It's the people's money.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:10
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.
My 2012 List
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:51
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Libertarianism is political philosophy, not a suggestion for how to organize every human endeavor. But that doesn't even matter, because what's being criticized here is a general method that's been very successful for other businesses.

You just don't get it.  I've been accused in this thread of adhering to a belief system that does not match reality.  But as you say that, it becomes apparent to me that you don't understand my belief system.  I've argued the merits of socialism here and immediately people will tell me why governments that were based on a purely socialistic system have fallen apart.  But you misunderstand me - I'm not a socialist.  I'm not a Libertarian either.  I think what we need is a hybrid.  Because if you look at reality what I think you'll find is that we need both.  A system based purely on competition (Libertarianism) falls apart.  A system that has no competition (socialism) falls apart as well.  A system that has no authority structures (Libertarianism) falls apart.  A system that has too much authority (Communism) falls apart as well.  We need the Yin and the Yang together to create balance.  This is why I've brought up the NFL, because they are an example of a system that is combining Capitalism with Socialism quite brilliantly.  Is it a perfect system?  No.  Could it stand some improvement?  Yes.  But that's not the point.

Obamacare is also a pretty brilliant system that combines Capitalism with Socialism, and we are seeing premiums drop rapidly in the places it is being implemented, even though its implementation is not complete....
My 2012 List
Back to Top
tamijo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:05
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Pro-sports teams operate under the same exact premise.
 
Noone left in the defence, because everyone it trying to become the most popular player LOL
Infact pro sports teams very unliberal, everything is controlled from the top, and you are to do what you are told, with little freedom to do what you like.
Look at the Tour de france, one leader and everyone working for him only, little freedom to make your own goals in life.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 06:41
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Hey, how funny, this is exactly what I've been trying to get across to the Libertarians in this thread.


Is there a fact or a point anywhere in that article which should be keeping me awake in thought tonight? It seems awfully short

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


I see. So what, Ayn Rand was a hypocrite so Libertarianism is bad? Got it.

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Oooh, also, here's how Ayn Rand's philosophy may have killed Sears.
FTA:
Quote

First, Lampert broke the company into over 30 individual units, each with its own management, and each measured separately for profit and loss. Acting in their individual self-interest, they would be forced to compete with each other and thereby generate higher profits.

What actually happened is that units began to behave something like the cutthroat city-states of Italy around the time Machiavelli was penning his guide to rule-by-selfishness. As Mina Kimes has reported in Bloomberg Businessweek, they went to war with each other.

It got crazy. Executives started undermining other units because they knew their bonuses were tied to individual unit performance. They began to focus solely on the economic performance of their unit at the expense of the overall Sears brand.  One unit, Kenmore, started selling the products of other companies and placed them more prominently that Sears’ own products. Units competed for ad space in Sears’ circulars, and since the unit with the most money got the most ad space, one Mother’s Day circular ended up being released featuring a mini bike for boys on its cover. Units were no longer incentivized to make sacrifices, like offering discounts, to get shoppers into the store.

Sears became a miserable place to work, rife with infighting and screaming matches. Employees focused solely on making money in their own unit ceased to have any loyalty the company or stake in its survival. Eddie Lampert taunted employees by posting under a fake name on the company’s internal social network.

What Lampert failed to see is that humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals.  Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.



Queue the "he's not really a Libertarian" response in 3...2...


I'm sorry. But this is just stupid. First off, it seems like Lampert was just a dick and that has nothing to do with Libertarianism. Secondly, Libertarianism is political philosophy, not a suggestion for how to organize every human endeavor. But that doesn't even matter, because what's being criticized here is a general method that's been very successful for other businesses. I mean just a vague google search will turn up an article like this. Pro-sports teams operate under the same exact premise. It's ridiculous that you take this article as proof of anything. It's a data point, a very vague and unspecific data point. in a rather vast sea. I've admittedly done no sort of meta-analysis on this, but I would think that the results are at least inconclusive as to its efficiency. Then again, the proliferation of commission based jobs would have me think it's skewed towards the opposite side, for example. It seems like the CEO just bumbled in his implementation of the program.

And finally, the article argues that free market principles ruined Sears and forced them to stop using a beneficial business practice which is a result of a free market. This is just a contradiction sitting in light umbrage.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 05:33
Cue Geek
What?
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 05:22
Hey, how funny, this is exactly what I've been trying to get across to the Libertarians in this thread.

Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.

Oooh, also, here's how Ayn Rand's philosophy may have killed Sears.
FTA:
Quote

First, Lampert broke the company into over 30 individual units, each with its own management, and each measured separately for profit and loss. Acting in their individual self-interest, they would be forced to compete with each other and thereby generate higher profits.

What actually happened is that units began to behave something like the cutthroat city-states of Italy around the time Machiavelli was penning his guide to rule-by-selfishness. As Mina Kimes has reported in Bloomberg Businessweek, they went to war with each other.

It got crazy. Executives started undermining other units because they knew their bonuses were tied to individual unit performance. They began to focus solely on the economic performance of their unit at the expense of the overall Sears brand.  One unit, Kenmore, started selling the products of other companies and placed them more prominently that Sears’ own products. Units competed for ad space in Sears’ circulars, and since the unit with the most money got the most ad space, one Mother’s Day circular ended up being released featuring a mini bike for boys on its cover. Units were no longer incentivized to make sacrifices, like offering discounts, to get shoppers into the store.

Sears became a miserable place to work, rife with infighting and screaming matches. Employees focused solely on making money in their own unit ceased to have any loyalty the company or stake in its survival. Eddie Lampert taunted employees by posting under a fake name on the company’s internal social network.

What Lampert failed to see is that humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals.  Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.



Queue the "he's not really a Libertarian" response in 3...2...


Edited by dtguitarfan - July 19 2013 at 05:23
My 2012 List
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 21:09
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Let me know when you're ready to give up rigid idealism and hatred for any kind of governmental action whatsoever and we can talk.



Neither of those things are true. Though I'm indifferent to whether we talk or not at this point.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 
And what if the "big shark" gains dominance in the market?  If people like their product or service better, if they can offer quality at low prices, then doesn't their dominance just reflect how well they serve their customers?  Can a monopoly be good?  


These kinds of "monopolies" don't last, either; contrary to the assertion that libertarians think "greed is good," we don't; we merely recognize the existence of greed, and think that its rewards and consequences will be borne my any who exhibit it.  The greedy corporation gains control of the market in the first place by lowering prices and offering a quality product/service, and the same greed leads it to raise prices and lower quality once it reaches the top of the market, opening the door for competitors to topple it.  No "perfect" competition, but no "robber barons" either.

This is exactly what I think would happen and I just think the 'eventuality' takes too long to materialize.  And coming to MS...
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 

It would be a long time before Apple could make a dent in emerging markets.   The US has always had Apple fans and people working in creative industries prefer Macs (but that is a niche requirement).  And I suspect the only reason people would still buy a Mac is because Mac compatible MS Office packages are also available.  So even if Mac preys into their OS business, replacing Office could take a very long time.  Nothing short of an event that would completely kill the PC market.   By which time, we might have had three decades of total MS domination.  That might not be a long time in history but that is almost the entire working life of a person.   I guess people who started working in the 90s won't even know a non MS world.  The pace of change in that regard is very slow when you compare it to the speed at which IT has generally been evolving for the last two decades.  And that is the price we have to pay for monopoly.   


By the way, none of this is to say that in a licensed market instead of a free one,  there would not be monopoly.  We Indians experienced Licence Raj in its full glory and would not recommend it to anyone as it created seller's markets everywhere.    I want entry into a market to be unfettered.  I just want restrictions on marketshare or hostile takeovers.    Let the small firm compete with the shark if they want to and let them only sell out on their free will.  
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Sorry, I just don't see the problem.  I read the article.  Distributors freely signed a contract with Yash Raj agreeing to show both films.  In fact, the article noted that there were also distributors who only showed one.  In every major city but one listed in the chart at the end of the article, SoS was still available for viewing.  There's no monopoly; one company is doing better than the other, that is all.  If there were more demand for the other film, distributors would have showed it on more screens.  


Yes, SoS was still available for viewing but the block deal was done to deny it the best screens.  Ok, you have to understand a little more of Bollywood dynamics for this.  Ek Tha Tiger was a Salman Khan film and usually these dumb and dumber Salman starring action films are assured blockbusters.  By contrast, JTJH was a film with a dated storyline and may not have found as many takers had it not been for the block deal.  Yes, there's nothing legally wrong there but it is a monopolistic practice.  Each film ought to stand on its own in the market, whereas Yashraj has used their clout to push both films on distributors.  You cannot tie the right to distribute the film with the obligation to another, that is just blackmail.  I will choose if I want to buy either of Civic or Accord.  It's none of Honda's business to force me to buy both or none at all.  I mean, that actually goes against the principle of choice and monopolies often succeed in extracting agreements that cramp the choice of their suppliers or customers.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:14
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^  That ultimately depends on which way you look at it.  Try telling 500 million people living well below $1 a day that hence forth the govt will be run as per libertarian principles and hence nothing can be done about their lot while the elite can comfortably increase their wealth through speculative investments without adding anything to the gross output of the economy.  

Oh don't worry, some wealthy patron will feed them, they feed their horses all the same.
Never would I recommend a poverty stricken country to move to a libertarian shstem while it is still run by oligarchs. I don't think libertarianism can exist in countries that haven't achieved some order and prosperity first. No studies or stats, just my opinion based on my analysis.
But Libertarianism was the policy in the early US, before a deeply woven society had stabilized and wealth flourished, just a policy for settler pioneers without (necessarily) previous wealth. I guess that some of you attribute the economical success of many of those pioneers to the fact that the country was ruled under rather Libertarian policies. So now saying that Libertarianism is only fit for societies with a certain level of wealth seems a bit contradictory?

Because you could say there is equilibrium in social order when the country is still very young and most of it is unexplored.   Um, like when a newly developed planned city is occupied by the public, the first generation is anxious to maintain some decorum and hygiene, so daily life is orderly.  As it gets crowded and the demographic homogeneity is lost, newer entrants don't care about all that.  They only came because they could get reasonably sized dwelling units for an affordable price.   I am talking, as it were, about that part of Mumbai that I live in.  I think this also indirectly addresses why immigration is a pain point in advanced societies.   But once you have established that this is Rome and this is what we the Romans do, it is easier to experiment with deregulation.
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:12
You keep coming in here to talk to us.  
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
dtguitarfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 20:02
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 

You have no idea who I am.  You have no idea what kinds of extracurricular activities I'm involved in.  But here's a thought for you - I have been involved in helping my community.  And I could do a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that I'm an indentured servant who's going to be paying back his damn student loans for the next few decades.

Class warfare DOES exist.  And the war is being won by the rich.  So let's just get rid of the only agency that can possibly give us little people a chance, eh?  Let's just lie down and die for them so they can walk all over our dead bodies, huh?


Yeah. I kinda said already that my statement was inaccurate. But then you shouldn't go around dissuading people from personal action. Nor should you make the absurd statements about Libertarians that you did.

Straw men. Straw men. Let me know when you want to have a real discussion.

Let me know when you're ready to give up rigid idealism and hatred for any kind of governmental action whatsoever and we can talk.
My 2012 List
Back to Top
Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2013 at 19:08
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

As long as we're making largely inaccurate statements, you evidently care more about your political ideology then actually helping people, where you want some nebulous governmental structure to help people for you.

Somehow that' not callous, but my statements were. 

You have no idea who I am.  You have no idea what kinds of extracurricular activities I'm involved in.  But here's a thought for you - I have been involved in helping my community.  And I could do a whole lot more if it weren't for the fact that I'm an indentured servant who's going to be paying back his damn student loans for the next few decades.

Class warfare DOES exist.  And the war is being won by the rich.  So let's just get rid of the only agency that can possibly give us little people a chance, eh?  Let's just lie down and die for them so they can walk all over our dead bodies, huh?


Yeah. I kinda said already that my statement was inaccurate. But then you shouldn't go around dissuading people from personal action. Nor should you make the absurd statements about Libertarians that you did.

Straw men. Straw men. Let me know when you want to have a real discussion.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 8384858687 294>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.363 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.