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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 15:00
It's amusing that you think talking to you is a privilege I have to earn.
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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 15:09
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

It's amusing that you think talking to you is a privilege I have to earn.

1) After the way you've snidely insisted that you are the owner of all truth and everyone else is wrong (unless they agree with you), you should expect that.
2) Have I stopped talking to you?  No.  I simply refuse to answer your questions any more.  I am doing this on my own terms now.  I will ignore what I want to ignore.  I have realized that all you want to do is prove everything I say wrong, and therefore when you ask me a question, I don't particularly want to answer it.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 15:18
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

It's amusing that you think talking to you is a privilege I have to earn.

1) After the way you've snidely insisted that you are the owner of all truth and everyone else is wrong (unless they agree with you), you should expect that.
2) Have I stopped talking to you?  No.  I simply refuse to answer your questions any more.  I am doing this on my own terms now.  I will ignore what I want to ignore.  I have realized that all you want to do is prove everything I say wrong, and therefore when you ask me a question, I don't particularly want to answer it.


And this changes things...how?  Ermm

You don't have to answer that.  Ying Yang
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 15:21

Oh dear, looks like I chose the wrong moment to poke my nose into this thread again. Nothing ever changes.

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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:21
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

It's amusing that you think talking to you is a privilege I have to earn.

1) After the way you've snidely insisted that you are the owner of all truth and everyone else is wrong (unless they agree with you), you should expect that.


Pretty sure that he's describing himself here.

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


2) Have I stopped talking to you?  No.  I simply refuse to answer your questions any more.  I am doing this on my own terms now.  I will ignore what I want to ignore.  I have realized that all you want to do is prove everything I say wrong, and therefore when you ask me a question, I don't particularly want to answer it.


Can't answer the questions so will ignore them. Big announcement: Nothing's changed! Also, the world around you has proved everything you say is wrong but instead of seeing that you just dig deep and look for more and more ridiculous explanations.


Time always wins.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:25
Teo's turn next. Stern Smile
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:34
Turn for what? Have you gone back and seen what this guy's been posting the last how many pages and how he responds to any criticism of it? I respect the other regulars here for being above responding in kind. I'm not above that sort of thing, as we all know. I do watch myself a bit more these days, though.

Edited by manofmystery - July 14 2013 at 16:36


Time always wins.
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:35
Then Equality
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:38
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Turn for what? Have you gone back and seen what this guy's been posting the last how many pages and how he responds to any criticism of it? I respect the other regulars here for being above responding in kind. I'm not above that sort of thing, as we all know. I do watch myself a bit more these days, though.
You want to look back at this thread (and the news thread and most poltical threads) to see how often tag-teaming is used once "an opponent" has been put on the defensive.. Then you'll see that it is Teo's turn next.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:47
'Tag Teaming' haha! 
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manofmystery View Drop Down
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:54
Tag-teaming? Come on, there are like 3-4 of us on the entire site (and one of those was once a "tag-teamed" member of your hyper majority). This is just whining about having to actually engage in a debate instead of just being able voice your opinions and have them go unquestioned.


Time always wins.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 16:58
Its not your turn.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:11
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Tag-teaming? Come on, there are like 3-4 of us on the entire site (and one of those was once a "tag-teamed" member of your hyper majority). This is just whining about having to actually engage in a debate instead of just being able voice your opinions and have them go unquestioned.
Eh? I'm not whining, just observing, and it's not the first time I've noticed it or commented upon it, once the comments turn away from the subject and towards the personal (regardless of who started it) you seem to queue up to have your go.
 
There is no hyper majority here and if there was it wouldn't be mine, I seldom agree with Geoff (in fact, I never agree with Geoff) or Slarti or Tim, or, or... Ermm  or... are there any more vocal liberals and/or democrats here who are prepared to discuss anything with "you"?
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Turn for what? Have you gone back and seen what this guy's been posting the last how many pages and how he responds to any criticism of it? I respect the other regulars here for being above responding in kind. I'm not above that sort of thing, as we all know. I do watch myself a bit more these days, though.
You want to look back at this thread (and the news thread and most poltical threads) to see how often tag-teaming is used once "an opponent" has been put on the defensive.. Then you'll see that it is Teo's turn next.


That's unfortunately an unavoidable accident of having a thread dedicated to one political philosophy - whether it be libertarianism, socialism, conservatism, or any other political idea, the proponents of that philosophy are going to dominate the discussion on their own thread; I don't think the "tag-teaming" is malicious or anything; just a result of several people with similar opinions all wanting to get them out at once.

EDIT: oh, you kind of meant something else.  Oops.

MoM, there are about...er...7 or 8 libertarians here?  You, me, Rob, Pat, Logan, Teo, JJ...I'm not sure if Padraic is a libertarian (he doesn't post here as much and I haven't been on here that long) but I thought he was.


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - July 14 2013 at 17:18
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:16
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Nobody addressed Ralph Nader and seat belts.  You like seat belts?  You know you have them because of legislation that Ralph Nader made happen? 

That's what I think it so stupid about this "free market" idea.  The corporations fought Nader tooth and nail on seat belts and air bags, and said things like "if we have to do this, we won't make a profit!"  That was proven wrong in the end, but it took government FORCING (oh, you guys hate when I use that word, don't you) them to do the right thing.  It usually takes some governmental authority FORCING companies to do the right thing before it becomes common practice.  Which is why "the free market" is crap.  Actually, there's a ton of legislation that Nader made happen that goes against your silly "free market" theory, you should study up on his life sometime.


What? I'm not familiar with this story of the seat belt.

Read up on it: http://www.pophistorydig.com/?tag=general-motors-ralph-nader

One highlight:
Quote Initially, Nader and his book were featured at one U.S. Senate hearing in early 1966.  But a furor erupted shortly thereafter when it was learned that General Motors had hired private investigators to try to find dirt on Nader to discredit him as a Congressional witness.


If you have the time, watch the documentary "An Unreasonable Man".

His life discredits "Free Market Theory".  If there were any truth to "Free Market Theory", you wouldn't have General Motors hiring prostitutes to try to get Ralph Nader in bed with them and sending private investigators after him.


What are you talking about? It mentions nowhere that Ralph Nader is responsible for seat belts. He's responsible (in some way unmentioned by your link) for a law forcing autocompanies to have seat belts in cars. They were already in use and often developed under autocompany payrolls themselves.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:24
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

I do think that there should be a government, but I'm beginning to come around to the idea that taxation should be voluntary.  Think about it - if people want the things that a government typically provides, won't they be willing to pay for them?  They already do!  Except in a system like this, if the people don't like what the government is doing, they can just stop paying them - and the government will have to alter their policies to fit the will of the people. 
That's what we do. Since our political parties are funded from the taxes proportionally to the votes they get, if you stop voting for party A and decide switching your vote to party B, this effectively means that you stop paying to party A and decide to pay instead to party B, whose policies you agree more with. But paying to some party is compulsory, you can't just say, sorry I don't contribute.
The rich can't influence this much because funding via donations is strictly limited and controlled.


Funding political parties is not the same as funding government programs.

What if you don't agree with any of the political parties?  What if you don't care about politics?  If I lived in Belgium I may just be put in prison for tax evasion.  And I'm not kidding.

Well, in Belgium voting is compulsory, of course you may vote blank. In my native Spain voting is not compulsory, you may pass. It makes no difference, the point is that every citizen has to contribute to the sustainment of the democratical political system, regardless if you support democracy or not (the must to accept democracy is taken as a given, no choice about that) or which ideology you support. You pay taxes and part of them go to funding the political parties proportionally to their voting results, that's it. If you choose to vote blank or not to vote, your money still goes to the most voted parties, proportionally. I think it's fine and it's also a way to make people interested in politics. It's easy to say 'I don't care about politics' but the plain truth is your life is governed by politics, like it or not.
 
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:38
What happens in Belgium if someone refuses to vote?  Or cannot make it to the poll?
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dtguitarfan View Drop Down
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 17:46
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Nobody addressed Ralph Nader and seat belts.  You like seat belts?  You know you have them because of legislation that Ralph Nader made happen? 

That's what I think it so stupid about this "free market" idea.  The corporations fought Nader tooth and nail on seat belts and air bags, and said things like "if we have to do this, we won't make a profit!"  That was proven wrong in the end, but it took government FORCING (oh, you guys hate when I use that word, don't you) them to do the right thing.  It usually takes some governmental authority FORCING companies to do the right thing before it becomes common practice.  Which is why "the free market" is crap.  Actually, there's a ton of legislation that Nader made happen that goes against your silly "free market" theory, you should study up on his life sometime.


What? I'm not familiar with this story of the seat belt.

Read up on it: http://www.pophistorydig.com/?tag=general-motors-ralph-nader

One highlight:
Quote Initially, Nader and his book were featured at one U.S. Senate hearing in early 1966.  But a furor erupted shortly thereafter when it was learned that General Motors had hired private investigators to try to find dirt on Nader to discredit him as a Congressional witness.


If you have the time, watch the documentary "An Unreasonable Man".

His life discredits "Free Market Theory".  If there were any truth to "Free Market Theory", you wouldn't have General Motors hiring prostitutes to try to get Ralph Nader in bed with them and sending private investigators after him.


What are you talking about? It mentions nowhere that Ralph Nader is responsible for seat belts. He's responsible (in some way unmentioned by your link) for a law forcing autocompanies to have seat belts in cars. They were already in use and often developed under autocompany payrolls themselves.

This is why I've stopped trying.  I have to rewrite history in order for you people to listen to me.  I shouldn't be so hard.  You should go out and research YOURSELF.  LOOK INTO IT.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 18:06
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

What happens in Belgium if someone refuses to vote?  Or cannot make it to the poll?
In Belgium voting is compulsory, but if for any reason you can't vote (you're away on trip, in hospital badly sick or injured etc, even if of course voting by mail or internet is often still possible) you ask for an exemption from the voting obligation and it's ok, you just need the certification from the doctor, or the travel ticket etc.
Actually when there are ellections, reservations for travelling rise up a lot so people use then to justify not having to go vote, even if many are then cancelled last minute Wink
But if you don't have an acceptable excuse and you don't go vote, you get a penalty.
 
In Spain voting is not compulsory so it doesn't matter, you may not vote but that will not save you from paying the part of your taxes which is destined to funding the political parties.


Edited by Gerinski - July 14 2013 at 18:10
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2013 at 19:24
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

What happens in Belgium if someone refuses to vote?  Or cannot make it to the poll?
In Belgium voting is compulsory, but if for any reason you can't vote (you're away on trip, in hospital badly sick or injured etc, even if of course voting by mail or internet is often still possible) you ask for an exemption from the voting obligation and it's ok, you just need the certification from the doctor, or the travel ticket etc.
Actually when there are ellections, reservations for travelling rise up a lot so people use then to justify not having to go vote, even if many are then cancelled last minute Wink
But if you don't have an acceptable excuse and you don't go vote, you get a penalty.
 
In Spain voting is not compulsory so it doesn't matter, you may not vote but that will not save you from paying the part of your taxes which is destined to funding the political parties.


Ah, interesting.  What is the penalty?
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