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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: June 23 2013 at 02:02 |
IGNEO1991 wrote:
Why is it too strong a word? I am being direct, and so i should be- if you examine, in the context of him talking about being unprogressive as copying the classic progressive rock sound, when he himself is actually doing this explicitly now, then that is what i would call a hypocrite- i don't hate the man, but i'm not going to beat around the bush and use indirect language to get my point across.
Also the word 'homage' and 'rip-off' are just the same thing, the latter has negative connotations, but the former doesn't- but again, their is no difference in their ending meaning/result- an 'emulation' (another way of putting it ) is still at work here. I understand that it is incredibly hard to be 'original' these days, when all music has been made before- from pop to noise music and everything in between, but these 'homages' are so direct on his latest record that being suspect is a natural reaction on my part. |
in terms of getting a discussion going then I suppose its okay but I just don't like the word. Its quite a strong criticism of someone's personality and is a bit like calling someone 'arrogant' ( and I used to think this true of Wilson). At the end of the day you have to be careful about branding other people like this. Would you be okay with being called a hypocrite on something whatever it may be? People are just people (not perfect) and sady will not behave in a way and say things that you like all the time. You have a choice not to buy his albums if you feel that strongly enough about it.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 17136
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 10:56 |
Wilson did have a noticeably anti-prog stance in the 90s, for whatever reason. He didn't want his music referred to as prog, but then he was interviewed in Progression of all places. He also criticized Ozric Tentacles for lack of compositional innovation, but now I hear that what he's been recording has more nods to "vintage" prog than ever.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 09:11 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
JaySpiral wrote:
TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes. | ... and some CTTE.
So what? Why can't it sound like an homage to classic prog? |
Er, because Wilson had originally decided that that gives prog a bad name. It is this last part that I have a particular quarrel with. It shows again that Wilson cares too much about public perceptions of his music. If he calls TFK or some other bands boring or un-progressive, that is ok as that is just his opinion irrespective of what he does within his own music. But to proceed to say that those bands in some way spoil the business for him is just too much.
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IGNEO1991
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 08 2009
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 122
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:41 |
Why is it too strong a word? I am being direct, and so i should be- if you examine, in the context of him talking about being unprogressive as copying the classic progressive rock sound, when he himself is actually doing this explicitly now, then that is what i would call a hypocrite- i don't hate the man, but i'm not going to beat around the bush and use indirect language to get my point across.
Also the word 'homage' and 'rip-off' are just the same thing, the latter has negative connotations, but the former doesn't- but again, their is no difference in their ending meaning/result- an 'emulation' (another way of putting it ) is still at work here. I understand that it is incredibly hard to be 'original' these days, when all music has been made before- from pop to noise music and everything in between, but these 'homages' are so direct on his latest record that being suspect is a natural reaction on my part.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:26 |
Hypocrite is way too strong a word to use as ABM pointed out even with the get out of the question mark. I will accept the fact the Steven likes to have his cake and eat it though. He likes to be seen as the leader of the modern prog scene while reserving the right to 'plunder' seventies ideas and styles. A neat trick if you can pull it off
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 841
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 08:08 |
Dellinger wrote:
I don't really care whatever he might have said in the past, and whether his opinion changed, or he didn't see his album as regressive, or whatever. The fact is I really liked The Raven album a lot, I even liked it more than the previous, which I didn't expect to be the case before I got it, and I even think I like it better than the albums I have already heard from Porcupine Tree. Oh yeah, and the concert was fabulous. |
I whole-heartedly agree. And I love his nods and winks to the music of my youth. It's a hommage, not a rip off, to one and each of the musicians he admire. The Flower Kings on the other hand, to me they sound like "progged-up" Swedish "Dance-band" music. It's hard to explain what Dance-band is, you'd have to listen to it, which I don't recommened.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 06:58 |
Steven Wilson has always produced music with a knowing (and acknowledged) nod to the past, whether that was the various PT eras, IEM, Bass Communion, No-Man, Blackfield or any of his solo work (including, obviously, his 6 Cover Version singles), that he should turn his attention to the more art rock/jazzy/symphonic side of Prog should have come as no surprise and whether that is regressive is merely a matter of opinion. What Wilson protested against was not "looking back" and using those influences in a modern context, but about " following the blueprint from 1972 so closely".
When I listen to Luminol, Numbers and the Fly From Here suite it is only the latter two that become interchangeable. That's not a criticism, I like Banks of Eden and Fly From Here, but Stolt, (or Horn, Downes and Squire), could have written either piece and they would sit comfortably on either album.
Sure there are knowing references to Fragile era Yes in Luminol with the Squire-esque Rickenbacker bass, (albeit played on a Fender Jazz Bass... probably), punctuated jazz drumming, snapped guitar soloing, symphonic keyboard swells and treated electric piano riffs - and as someone said, "it may as well be straight from Fragile" ... take that as a compliment rather than a critique because Numbers and Fly From Here would not have made the final cut against South Side Of the Sky (to pick one track at random) because the abrasion and aggression comes up lacking. For me Yes produced some of the most abrasive music of the 70s for all the harmony and symphony there is an aggression in those core era albums that has been diluted by modern symphonic prog bands, including latter-day Yes themselves unfortunately - perhaps what was seen as "following the blueprint from 1972 so closely" was in reality not following it closely enough, but merely following the perception of what that blueprint was.
Edited by Dean - June 22 2013 at 06:59
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What?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 03:57 |
For sure he should not criticize TFK, Transatlantic etc for something he obviously has ended doing as well, that's unfortunate to use a nice word. But Steven has proven that he has also creativity enough during his career. It's just that he likes that retro music too, he knows how to make it and he knows that most Prog fans will love it so it's a safe formula for success. I myself like 'Grace' and 'Raven' but not to the point they are generally praised, they sound very nice but there is missing 'substance' IMO. In some way it could be called the equivalent of 'commercial music' within the sub-world of Prog. But I have nothing against it, look at Wobbler's Rites At Dawn, more blatantly retro-rip-off it can hardly be, and yet I enjoy it! I'm sure Steven will still release music more original than his latest 2 albums, under his name or as PT or as another project who knows.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 02:19 |
JaySpiral wrote:
TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes. |
... and some CTTE.
So what? Why can't it sound like an homage to classic prog?
Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 22 2013 at 02:21
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:16 |
ole-the-first wrote:
For exaple, look at that review: http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=929249 There are thousands ways to write a negative review on an album, but to start it with words like 'I decided to finish my hate
affair with this musician'... sorry, but that sounds just like Robert Christgau.
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Sounds like poor English to me more than anything. The rest of his review makes it clear his 'hate' is meant for Wilson's music and not the person as such but he put it badly.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:14 |
HolyMoly wrote:
Wilson's opinionated and sometimes mouths off a bit. He's a passionate guy. Lots of people are like that. If he's a hypocrite, then so are about half the people you see on the street every day.. It's really no big deal. John Lennon did that a lot too - lots of contradictions between what he said in 1966 vs what he said in 1973. They're just humans like us.
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I don't think normal people are so bitter about what their colleagues do as to pronounce their work as the 'death of their profession'. Or maybe in a way they are. Wilson's comments are not very different in a way from the guys who moan about what somebody else got in the appraisal and blaming it entirely and unjustifiably on politics instead of focusing on their job. In that limited sense, it might be reflective of general attitudes, but an unhealthy and spiteful one at that. I don't remember members from otherr bands blaming somebody else for a supposedly false image of prog rock and that's as it should be.
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zeqexes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 19 2012
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1238
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Posted: June 22 2013 at 01:05 |
Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
Not a fan of the baiting title of this thread...but there is no doubt that Wilson is...shall we say, `embracing' the vintage progressive rock sounds of old on his most recent two solo albums.
But there is no way I would dismiss `The Raven...' as being a mere clone of 70's works. Many classic era influences implemented into the material, but more than enough modern and contemporary sounds too. Oh, and it's damn good as well.
I love all of Wilson's work, and am a mad Flower Kings fan as well, but the constant cycle of this `FK's vs Wilson' story popping up again is really tired.
And there is not even the slighest sign that `progressive rock has reached it's time'! There are so many oustanding, cutting edge and fascinating releases so far this year alone, so plenty of life left in the genre! |
I agree with this.
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12732
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 21:08 |
I don't really care whatever he might have said in the past, and whether his opinion changed, or he didn't see his album as regressive, or whatever. The fact is I really liked The Raven album a lot, I even liked it more than the previous, which I didn't expect to be the case before I got it, and I even think I like it better than the albums I have already heard from Porcupine Tree. Oh yeah, and the concert was fabulous.
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Earthmover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 1509
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 20:36 |
I want him to experiment more, or at least to return to Insurgentes sound. Insurgentes is awesome, probably his most diverse and daring record. I don't enjoy The Raven as much and it's really because of 70s influence - not something I would expect from Wilson, and not in a good way. But I hope it's just a warm-up record. He's just got his new band set, after all.
Edited by mister nobody - June 21 2013 at 20:38
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 19:50 |
Well...I like his work with PT better than his solo material and to me Raven does not sound all that retro at times. Still it's obvious in many of his songs that he is influenced greatly by the classic prog bands and is a big fan of KC obviously so he does contradict himself at times. But hypocrite..? I don't think so.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
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JaySpiral
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 30 2013
Location: Oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 22
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 16:11 |
TRTRTS is a frustrating album to listen to for me. I want to enjoy it. But there are so many blatant rip-offs from classic prog that it's just annoying. Luminol may as well be straight from Fragile by Yes.
I love Steven Wilson but that album is frustrating. And I think based on what he said, that is a bit hypocritical of him. But who cares? People's minds can change.
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 15:08 |
There's a difference from having influences from the past and sounding pastoral. Stevens recognizes this line.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26138
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:29 |
You are making me very angry.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:28 |
Speak for yourself puny human.
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26138
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Posted: June 21 2013 at 11:18 |
Wilson's opinionated and sometimes mouths off a bit. He's a passionate guy. Lots of people are like that. If he's a hypocrite, then so are about half the people you see on the street every day.. It's really no big deal. John Lennon did that a lot too - lots of contradictions between what he said in 1966 vs what he said in 1973. They're just humans like us.
Edited by HolyMoly - June 21 2013 at 11:19
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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