"Freedom" thread or something

dtguitarfan wrote:    Every time I say something bad about Republicans people try to make me feel guilty - there's nothing to feel guilty about.  They've simply become evil and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

Says the fellow who calls me a proud, stubborn, jerk who lacks empathy. 

Tell us Geoff...at what point in history did Republicans become evil?  I'm interested in hearing this one.

Epignosis wrote:   If you accept totalitarianism, then you must accept whatever the totalitarian says is right. If you accept democracy, then you must accept whatever the majority says is right? Kind of a lousy way to determine where you stand morally, isn't it?

Epignosis wrote: dtguitarfan wrote:    Every time I say something bad about Republicans people try to make me feel guilty - there's nothing to feel guilty about.  They've simply become evil and anyone who says otherwise is in denial. Says the fellow who calls me a proud, stubborn, jerk who lacks empathy.  Tell us Geoff...at what point in history did Republicans become evil?  I'm interested in hearing this one.

I accept your challenge.  Note that no matter what I say, you're probably going to say it's all lies.  However, I put the burden of proof back to you.

I would say it started with Nixon and the Southern Strategy, designed to woo racist southerners to the party.  Here is some further reading on that subject (though that's just something I quickly found - I could find many more papers and articles about this, but I'm sure you'll argue with any one of them that I pull out).  Now there were racist Democrats as well - known as Dixie-crats.  But something happened in the late 70's that eliminated the Dixie-crats and made them all into Republicans, as Paul Weyrich (influential Evangelical leader and founder of the Heritage Foundation) will admit:

[W]hat galvanized the Christian community was not abortion, school prayer, or the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment]. I am living witness to that because I was trying to get those people interested in those issues and I utterly failed. What changed their minds was Jimmy Carter’s intervention against the Christian schools, trying to deny them tax-exempt status on the basis of so-called de facto segregation.

See here for more on that subject (note once again - this is an article I was quickly able to find and could find many more, probably more detailed, articles on the subject).  So we've got a bunch of really mad racists on both sides.  Reagan comes along and starts telling stories about a young buck and a welfare queen taking advantage of the system - both racially charged images designed to incite the anger of the racists.  See here for more on that topic (note once again...you know the drill by now, I found it fast and probably could've found better if this was a research paper and not a forum post).  Fast forward to today when you get a black man running for president and you can start to imagine:
1) why Obama won with such strong numbers from ALL minorities. 
2) why racist b*****ds like Rush Limbaugh have enjoyed such influence within the Republican party
3) why the GOP "autopsy" revealed that people think that the GOP is (these are not my words - this is part of the report) "extreme", "narrow minded", "scary"

Now you asked at what point did they become evil.  That's my answer - the modern incarnation of the party was founded on racism.  A bunch of other evils have resulted.  Note very carefully that I am not implying that anyone who votes Republican is racist, I am saying that because the party used racism and lies to fuel their support, it has come back to be a defining ideal of the leaders of the party.  I could easily write more about this subject and find many more articles and facts, etc., but I am not paid to write replies to stubborn people on internet forums.

The T wrote: You know, I'm not the libertarianest libertarian, I recognize the existence of society and support some government, but it is statements like Gerinski's last that affirm me in my fear of letting government get too big and democracy too powerful. Just because a majority decides murder or slavery is legal doesn't make that immoral action legitimate or even binding in my little book, but who would I be to oppose the mighty power of the masses?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: ^ That's just using the abstraction of government to hide your own moral culpability. Slave owners can't have their consciences protected just because it was legal. This very concept of this is what makes me sickened by governments. People hide behind governments and this has a most pernicious affect on society. Society crumbles when we allow people to cloak their apathy and evil behind the cloak of democracy.

Edited by Gerinski - June 20 2013 at 15:41

Equality 7-2521 wrote: I'm arguing that people need to decide how to live. They can't let the government decide for them and still feel like they're leading a good life because the law happens to agree with their decisions.

dtguitarfan wrote: Epignosis wrote: dtguitarfan wrote:    Every time I say something bad about Republicans people try to make me feel guilty - there's nothing to feel guilty about.  They've simply become evil and anyone who says otherwise is in denial. Says the fellow who calls me a proud, stubborn, jerk who lacks empathy.  Tell us Geoff...at what point in history did Republicans become evil?  I'm interested in hearing this one. I accept your challenge.  Note that no matter what I say, you're probably going to say it's all lies.  However, I put the burden of proof back to you. I would say it started with Nixon and the Southern Strategy, designed to woo racist southerners to the party.  Here is some further reading on that subject (though that's just something I quickly found - I could find many more papers and articles about this, but I'm sure you'll argue with any one of them that I pull out).  Now there were racist Democrats as well - known as Dixie-crats.  But something happened in the late 70's that eliminated the Dixie-crats and made them all into Republicans, as Paul Weyrich (influential Evangelical leader and founder of the Heritage Foundation) will admit: [W]hat galvanized the Christian community was not abortion, school prayer, or the ERA [Equal Rights Amendment]. I am living witness to that because I was trying to get those people interested in those issues and I utterly failed. What changed their minds was Jimmy Carter’s intervention against the Christian schools, trying to deny them tax-exempt status on the basis of so-called de facto segregation. See here for more on that subject (note once again - this is an article I was quickly able to find and could find many more, probably more detailed, articles on the subject).  So we've got a bunch of really mad racists on both sides.  Reagan comes along and starts telling stories about a young buck and a welfare queen taking advantage of the system - both racially charged images designed to incite the anger of the racists.  See here for more on that topic (note once again...you know the drill by now, I found it fast and probably could've found better if this was a research paper and not a forum post).  Fast forward to today when you get a black man running for president and you can start to imagine: 1) why Obama won with such strong numbers from ALL minorities.  2) why racist b*****ds like Rush Limbaugh have enjoyed such influence within the Republican party 3) why the GOP "autopsy" revealed that people think that the GOP is (these are not my words - this is part of the report) "extreme", "narrow minded", "scary" Now you asked at what point did they become evil.  That's my answer - the modern incarnation of the party was founded on racism.  A bunch of other evils have resulted.  Note very carefully that I am not implying that anyone who votes Republican is racist, I am saying that because the party used racism and lies to fuel their support, it has come back to be a defining ideal of the leaders of the party.  I could easily write more about this subject and find many more articles and facts, etc., but I am not paid to write replies to stubborn people on internet forums.

No need to keep making excuses for your research, Geoff.  I get it. 

You're engaged in a racism pissing contest between two political parties.  You could have quoted the introduction to your first source (from the clearly unbiased website Forward Progressives).  I'll do it for you. 

Whenever the topic of racism gets brought up between Democrats and Republicans, there are two facts you’ll almost always hear conservatives use to counter the belief that their party is full of racism: President Abraham Lincoln was a Republican The KKK was largely organized, and populated by, Democrats And both are facts. But when someone uses these two items as their defense that the Republican party isn’t loaded with racism, they’re only showing their ignorance about the reality of racism within their party.

As an introduction, the author here just told us that the purpose of his article is to demonstrate that "the Republican Party [is] loaded with racism.  All right:

Over the next decade, more and more Democrats began to embrace equality, passing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  And while more African Americans began to vote for Democrats, in the late-1960′s a new Republican strategy was put into place—the “Southern strategy.” This was a plan was that was first popularized by Richard Nixon. What the “Southern strategy” essentially does is it identified the fact that African Americans were voting for Democrats, therefore Republicans decided they would make white voters more aware of this fact in hopes of driving the “white vote” towards the Republican party. [...] Essentially it was the Republican party saying, “Look, blacks are voting for Democrats so you white people need to vote for Republicans—the party that will represent whites and oppose the blacks.”

The author mentions the Civil Rights Act of 1964, yet it strangely omits that Republican Dwight D. Eisenhower proposed and signed the Civil Rights Act of 1957, which Democrats staged a 54-day filibuster against, and which Democrat Senate Majority Leader Lyndon B. Johnson fought against, who also said the following:

“I’ll have those n****rs voting Democratic for the next 200 years.” — (Lyndon B. Johnson to two governors on Air Force One on "The Great Society")

“These Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference.”— (LBJ on the Civil Rights Act of 1957)

You know who voted in favor of the Civil Rights Act of 1957?  Richard Nixon.

Your article criticizes Nixon as follows:

Doubt me?  Let’s look at a comment from a 1970′s interview in the New York Times with Richard Nixon’s political strategist: “From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don’t need any more than that…but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That’s where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.” Essentially it was the Republican party saying, “Look, blacks are voting for Democrats so you white people need to vote for Republicans—the party that will represent whites and oppose the blacks.”

That's not what Richard Nixon was saying at all.  It's the opposite!  Read the quote again carefully.  There's historical context to help it make sense:

The election in question was 1968's.  Who had the stronghold in the south?  An Independent named George Wallace.

George Wallace was an admitted racist.

Nixon said, "The deep south had to virtually conceded to George Wallace.  I could not match him there without compromising on civil rights, which I would not do."  - Richard Nixon

So your misunderstanding of American history, despite a third party candidate winning a big chunk of the South, is still focused on Rs and Ds.

dtguitarfan wrote: Note very carefully that I am not implying that anyone who votes Republican is racist, I am saying that because the party used racism and lies to fuel their support, it has come back to be a defining ideal of the leaders of the party.

If it's a pissing contest you want, you may need to head back to the bar.  Tell them Robert Byrd sent ya. 

dtguitarfan wrote: I could easily write more about this subject and find many more articles and facts, etc., but I am not paid to write replies to stubborn people on internet forums.

And again with the Christian humility?

If you want to say the Republican party isn't displaying racism in much of its leadership, please explain their immigration policy....
And how in earth did Michelle Bachmann get elected?   That sh*t just doesn't happen in today's Democrat party.

dtguitarfan wrote: You're missing the point, Rob.  Democrats came around and started thinking of others besides themselves, and they came out on top because of that.  Meanwhile, today's Republican party keeps insisting it's not racist, and insisting that such an accusation is preposterous, but the burden of proof is obviously on them with Obama's numbers.  Obviously a majority of Americans disagrees.  So the burden of proof is on them, and the only way they're going to prove they're NOT racist is to start changing some of their policies...such as the way they feel about foodstamps, which have been traditionally used in the "welfare queen" mythology that Reagan used to woo racists to the Republican party....  "Oh, but government helping the poor is immoral!" you say.  And all the minorities hear is racism.  You've made quite a pickle for yourselves there.

I'm not missing the point.  You're misguided and you listen to your "Progressive Forward" website despite all the sources I gave you.  You aren't interested in history.  You're interested in trying to be right.

dtguitarfan wrote: Meanwhile, today's Republican party keeps insisting it's not racist, and insisting that such an accusation is preposterous, but the burden of proof is obviously on them with Obama's numbers.  Obviously a majority of Americans disagrees.

Obama's numbers?  Huh?

If you mean that Republicans overwhelmingly voted against Obama because he was...you know... a Democrat...

You know what?  I'm as confused as you are on that one. 

dtguitarfan wrote: So the burden of proof is on them, and the only way they're going to prove they're NOT racist is to start changing some of their policies...such as the way they feel about foodstamps, which have been traditionally used in the "welfare queen" mythology that Reagan used to woo racists to the Republican party....

Twice now you have used "welfare queen" as a racial slogan.

People on welfare have generally been consistent with population trends.  That means roughly 60-some% whites and 13% blacks.  People who automatically heard "welfare queen" as racist?  Guess what- they're the racists.

dtguitarfan wrote: "Oh, but government helping the poor is immoral!" you say.  And all the minorities hear is racism.  You've made quite a pickle for yourselves there.

So, because I think government is immoral, and minorities think I'm racist...I'm in trouble?



I'm glad you're cool with telling me what minorities hear when they hear a Libertarian speak.

Nope, that's not racist at all. 


Edited by Epignosis - June 20 2013 at 18:24

Mind you the Republicans have completely alienated the old Northeast Republican establishment that started the Republican Party. This is not your daddy's Republican Party.