"Freedom" thread or something

I think the problem as you describe it is that in the US politics is owned by the private sector. You should change that and make politics a public asset.

I guess you are missing the point Gerinski. What if the majority feels people shouldn't be allowed to have children? What if the majority wants to outlaw homosexuality and make it a crime? Does the fact that it was voted for in a popular election make the decision "right" or legitimate?

The T wrote: I guess you are missing the point Gerinski. What if the majority feels people shouldn't be allowed to have children? What if the majority wants to outlaw homosexuality and make it a crime? Does the fact that it was voted for in a popular election make the decision "right" or legitimate?

I think you're missing the point.  What if the MINORITY thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to have children?

This is basically what's happening in America right now - the Republican party has hijacked our system using gerrymandering to gain the majority in the House, and over using the Filibuster in the senate to make sure the majority can't get anything they want to pass.  The result is that we've had the least productive senate and house in history.  Oh goody - more power to the minority!

Gerrymandering is not new (Elbridge Gerry has been dead a long time), and is not an exclusively Republican tool.

dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: I guess you are missing the point Gerinski. What if the majority feels people shouldn't be allowed to have children? What if the majority wants to outlaw homosexuality and make it a crime? Does the fact that it was voted for in a popular election make the decision "right" or legitimate? I think you're missing the point.  What if the MINORITY thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to have children?This is basically what's happening in America right now - the Republican party has hijacked our system using gerrymandering to gain the majority in the House, and over using the Filibuster in the senate to make sure the majority can't get anything they want to pass.  The result is that we've had the least productive senate and house in history.  Oh goody - more power to the minority!

You have missed the entire point. I hope my explanation above somewhat helps you understand what I'm saying. You immediately turn everything into a D-R debate, you are a consummate political guy Geoff, one can't argue with you. Gerinski doesn't need to do that in order to express his points.

The T wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: I guess you are missing the point Gerinski. What if the majority feels people shouldn't be allowed to have children? What if the majority wants to outlaw homosexuality and make it a crime? Does the fact that it was voted for in a popular election make the decision "right" or legitimate? I think you're missing the point.  What if the MINORITY thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to have children?This is basically what's happening in America right now - the Republican party has hijacked our system using gerrymandering to gain the majority in the House, and over using the Filibuster in the senate to make sure the majority can't get anything they want to pass.  The result is that we've had the least productive senate and house in history.  Oh goody - more power to the minority! You have missed the entire point. I hope my explanation above somewhat helps you understand what I'm saying. You immediately turn everything into a D-R debate, you are a consummate political guy Geoff, one can't argue with you. Gerinski doesn't need to do that in order to express his points.

You don't know me.  I am actually quite moderate and refuse to call myself a Democrat because 1) there are things that they do sometimes that I disagree with (however, it is illogical to assume that means I should vote the other way, which is what most people want to try to imply) and 2) I am well aware that over the next 20 years or so things could reverse.  But what no one seems to be willing to admit is that it IS possible that the Republican party has become evil.  They have.  All they care about is making the rich richer and screw the poor.  They lie about things like Obamacare (which was actually their idea (see here) and pretty much everything else.  They incite hatred towards minorities and any religion that's not Christian (makes me ashamed of Christianity) and try to turn everyone against each other.  Oh, and don't even try it - I know exactly what's coming: "yeah, well Democrats do that too!"  You need to check up on your history if that's what you're going to say.  Every time I say something bad about Republicans people try to make me feel guilty - there's nothing to feel guilty about.  They've simply become evil and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

^UN rights and all of that are not binding. Yes Gerinski, the UN will ostracize you and sanction but you are allowing a supranational organization to have prevalence over your national majority. And sorry Gerinski but there are decisions that might not involve UN-sanctioned "human rights" but that are stil illegitimate even if a majority of the populations wants it. Legal =/= legitimate as you know.

And the mighty UN is just a little group of heads of state. What if the "majority" of the assembly decides to change the nature of a specific "human right"? Is that legitimate? This is of course hypothetical.

dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: I guess you are missing the point Gerinski. What if the majority feels people shouldn't be allowed to have children? What if the majority wants to outlaw homosexuality and make it a crime? Does the fact that it was voted for in a popular election make the decision "right" or legitimate? I think you're missing the point.  What if the MINORITY thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to have children?This is basically what's happening in America right now - the Republican party has hijacked our system using gerrymandering to gain the majority in the House, and over using the Filibuster in the senate to make sure the majority can't get anything they want to pass.  The result is that we've had the least productive senate and house in history.  Oh goody - more power to the minority! You have missed the entire point. I hope my explanation above somewhat helps you understand what I'm saying. You immediately turn everything into a D-R debate, you are a consummate political guy Geoff, one can't argue with you. Gerinski doesn't need to do that in order to express his points. You don't know me.  I am actually quite moderate and refuse to call myself a Democrat because 1) there are things that they do sometimes that I disagree with (however, it is illogical to assume that means I should vote the other way, which is what most people want to try to imply) and 2) I am well aware that over the next 20 years or so things could reverse.  But what no one seems to be willing to admit is that it IS possible that the Republican party has become evil.  They have.  All they care about is making the rich richer and screw the poor.  They lie about things like Obamacare (which was actually their idea (see here) and pretty much everything else.  They incite hatred towards minorities and any religion that's not Christian (makes me ashamed of Christianity) and try to turn everyone against each other.  Oh, and don't even try it - I know exactly what's coming: "yeah, well Democrats do that too!"  You need to check up on your history if that's what you're going to say.  Every time I say something bad about Republicans people try to make me feel guilty - there's nothing to feel guilty about.  They've simply become evil and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

Geoff:

1). True. I don't know you. I only know you from what you post here.

2). I'm not a republican, even though I sadly voted for Romney.

3). Not everybody that disagrees with you is a Republican. Or bad.

thellama73 wrote:   But you just said that anything voted for by a majority is democratically legitimate. Now you are saying that there are some things the majority should not be able to decide. Who decides what the universal human rights are? What if the UN  decides to allow slavery? Is that okay because the UN said so, and whatever the UN says goes? Do you have no moral code of your own besides what other people dictate to you? Everything you have said in this thread has been reasonable up to this point, but this line of thinking strikes me as utterly horrific.

Edited by Gerinski - June 20 2013 at 13:59

There's a difference between knowing that your own moral code isn't perfect and saying slavery is a-okay because some idiotic political abstraction made up of people no different than you says it to be so. If you can't live for any of your own principles, then what is the point?