"Freedom" thread or something |
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 25 2011 Location: internet Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: June 18 2013 at 23:19 | ||||
I am definitely pro-democracy, and would favor the last proposal: I'm basically calling for a return to the Constitution, which was supposed to safeguard liberty in a democratic republic by limiting the size of the government. The founding fathers foresaw the danger of the "tyranny of the majority" and organized the government accordingly. Then power-hungry politicians trampled on the constitution for centuries. I don't know if the US will ever return to it's founding principles, but I'd rather try and fail than give up. |
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 21 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 00:30 | ||||
The law? What law? How come there is a law when there is no government? Did everybody agree on that law?
Well, if the behavior isn't tolerated by other security firms, private courts etc., then what do they do? Start a civil war over it? |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 02:57 | ||||
Let's go to court! Ok, which one, yours or mine? |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 03:16 | ||||
You seem to believe that politicians have put themselves there, or have been put by majorities.
Nah, politicians and most of their laws are tools put there by the wealthy to protect their interests, so they don't have to show their own face. Yes, those incredibly wealthy you value so much because they amassed their fortunes thanks to the liberal market, and anyway they are very generous and donate parks and open museums with their private art collections. So what's the problem? they simply used their liberty, their liberty to put some people up there who would protect and benefit their interests, it's much like having created their private army or security firm, just that it's an army wearing ties and using laws instead of guns, which looks more polite. Start a libertarian country and it will end up with politicians created by the most powerful. Yes, some of the actions taken by politicians are oriented to keep the masses calm and make them think that we look for their interests too, a rather cheap facade just to prevent them from starting a revolution. |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 04:07 | ||||
Completely unrealistic. Do you really think we could live in a modern world without collective decisions, having to agree each single thing one at a time in a bi-lateral contractual way? unless we go back to the middle age lifestyle, no way.
Cool, I bet he will be quite busy
Unrealistic again. Collective decisions are what enables the economy to work on a massive scale (not only economy, the whole of interpersonal interactions). Imagine nobody decides what should be mentioned in a label on food products, you produce canned food and you have to discuss with each of your customers individually what does he want on the label. And what kind of conservatives does he allow you to use or not. If you want to produce cell phones, will you discuss with each of your customers what frequency should be used? You produce cars and you need to negotiate with each of your customers which level of safety devices he likes to have, if he likes the winkers white or yellow or red, if he wants the fuel gauge in gallons or liters, what level of exhaust emissions he wants, does he want laminated glass on the windscreen or plain glass, what kind of petrol do they use in his community (since there is no government set standard), does he allow you to use asbestos in the brake pads? etc etc etc. Your car production is going to be wonderfully efficient! Do you realise that any kind of trade would be impossible without pre-agreed rules, and rules which are collective, which you can apply to all the customers? and that it's simply impossible to discuss all those rules individually one by one (since there is no government to set the standards collectively)? No collective rules = back to the middle age, go live in an Amish community.
Edited by Gerinski - June 19 2013 at 04:10 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 05:40 | ||||
Libertarianism =/= no law. There have been civilizations throughout history with laws but no government (and that doesn't make them Libertarian civilizations either). |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 05:44 | ||||
This is precisely what happened in 2011 because the homeowner did not pay the annual tax. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:00 | ||||
This is another important thing to point out: It's said that "government builds roads."
They don't. They levy money from individuals and pay that money to a private contractor who starts building. The only difference from the people doing this themselves? Politicians and bureaucrats get to shave off a hunk of that money before it ever gets to fund civil service projects, and what's more, they routinely propose projects that benefit one group rather than everybody. If you still think government is required for infrastructure, then we need a history lesson: |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:00 | ||||
Wow... it is for real... this is the cruelest example I have seen of your hyper-liberal society. Thank god I don't live there. And you still think it is not libertarian enough... Thank god I'm sure she received a new mobile home from a wealthy patron.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:03 | ||||
So you agree with us that government is a tool for the wealthy to exert power over the rest of us? Unless you can demonstrate that a Libertarian country would inevitably descend into what we have now, your argument is a slippery slope. Did you look at my example of Liechtenstein? |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:06 | ||||
That's nice to know, thanks. I'm curious as to how did these companies collected the money from the road users? where all these roads equipped with a toll system?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:06 | ||||
You missed the point. You say people pay taxes to have a fire department. She didn't pay her taxes. She didn't think she needed to (her own admission). Suppose nobody paid their taxes and someone's house caught on fire. How would the fire get extinguished? |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:23 | ||||
Liechtenstein is not a 'country' in my book (of course I know it's a country), it's a financial instrument designed to benefit from the profits generated elsewhere, by the work of people other than his own population. I'm not in favour of its existence, it's not a demonstration of the success of a country IMO, only a demonstration of how unfair financial mechanisms can be legally allowed because of the lack of enough regulations and collective agreements between all the planet's countries.
In fact I am surprised that some very wealthy guy has not purchased an island somewhere and started his own private country with similar fiscal rules in order to attract companies' profits (a privately owned and fabricated tax haven country as a business). |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 06:39 | ||||
Sorry I had said that I would back off and here I am again spoiling your thread, it was stronger than I could resist
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 07:00 | ||||
You are spoiling nothing. I appreciate hearing your perspectives. |
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thellama73
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 07:03 | ||||
I quite agree. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 07:06 | ||||
Those who expatriate still get harassed for income taxes. I don't think it would be as simple as buying an island. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 07:21 | ||||
Yeah, I don't think it's that simple either I believe that you may not declare your own land a new sovereign country (even if it would be new land, for example a new artificial island) without the approval of the UN, and I doubt that approving such a project would be acceptable for the public opinion.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:02 | ||||
May I ask how does waste collection work in the States?
This is another of those things which I find hard to imagine being dealt with on an individual choice basis, without a collective democratic agreement for all the citizens. If your neighbour does not want to pay for waste collection, can he just drop it in his driveyard and let it rot and you have to suffer the stink of his rotting garbage? Of course I'm talking in urbanized areas, if you live isolated then it's not such a problem.
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thellama73
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:19 | ||||
If the neighbor's refuse is violating your property rights (which I think transmitting odor particles of a sufficiently noxious nature does) you can, of course, take legal recourse. I am not an expert on the specifics of waste collection economics, but garbage collection is run privately and works quite well, so I don't see why sewage could not be handled in a similar way. |
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