"Freedom" thread or something

dtguitarfan wrote: Your libertarian dream society is going to be fun...no electricity...no roads...no modern plumbing...oh, and no teacher jobs either!

Yes, there are no privately paid teachers, no plumbers that don't work for the government, no private roads, and no generators not owned by the state.

Do you seriously believe none of those things could exist without taxes? Seriously? Because they do exist now, you realize.

My favorite part of that image is the suggestion that we would somehow be unable to coordinate time without the government. It would be impossible to ever keep an appointment!

thellama73 wrote: My favorite part of that image is the suggestion that we would somehow be unable to coordinate time without the government. It would be impossible to ever keep an appointment!

Sure, we could do it now...AFTER the government regulated things so that there was a standard system of time.

dtguitarfan wrote: thellama73 wrote: My favorite part of that image is the suggestion that we would somehow be unable to coordinate time without the government. It would be impossible to ever keep an appointment! Sure, we could do it now...AFTER the government regulated things so that there was a standard system of time.

Geoff you should know better than to even enter this thread 

dtguitarfan wrote: The point is that we would have none of these things as systems that wrap around the entire country if it weren't for government.  Progress has been made in multiple forms because of government.  Ok, fine, you have private schools.  They're expensive.  And we have lots of single parents.  So they'll just have to have ignorant kids, huh?  Their families will forevermore be imprisoned in an unjust system where the only way to get out of poverty is to have money, huh?  Your system sucks.

Why are private schools so expensive? The free public schools that don't have to worry about turning a profit make competing for low-income families impossible. If there were no public schools, prices would come down as private schools tried to reach that market. Before mandatory education, schools were operated by volunteers anyway, so there's no reason to assume they could not be again. Finally, education at home works very well.

Why are there so many single parents? There didn't use to be. Maybe it's because the government has reduced the incentives to have a cohesive family. Single parenthood is a big cause of poverty too, you know.

The government doesn't prevent poverty. It prevents people from rising out of poverty by making it hard to earn money. You have to get a government license to be a street performer, you have to get a government license to cut hair, to sell flowers, to be a decorator, on and on. These things cost time and money the very poor don't have. To start your own business is a paperwork nightmare that can take months. Trying to sell food is insane due to FDA regulations. You can't cook in your own home and sell your wares because of zoning laws. Food trucks are under attack from the restaurant lobby. If you try to hire an employee, you have to pay him minimum wage, plus a bunch of other hiring regulations that make it unattractive to employ people. They are trying to pass an internet tax that will make it hard to make money selling things on the internet, an incredibly easy way for poor people to make money now,. No wonder no one has a job! Then if you do manage to make money, they take it away from you and call it "paying your fair share."

I concede that progress has been made because of the government, but you can't say that it wouldn't have been made in the government's absence. You make a lot of assumptions, but you don't explain why you make them.

thellama73 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The point is that we would have none of these things as systems that wrap around the entire country if it weren't for government.  Progress has been made in multiple forms because of government.  Ok, fine, you have private schools.  They're expensive.  And we have lots of single parents.  So they'll just have to have ignorant kids, huh?  Their families will forevermore be imprisoned in an unjust system where the only way to get out of poverty is to have money, huh?  Your system sucks. Why are private schools so expensive? The free public schools that don't have to worry about turning a profit make competing for low-income families impossible. If there were no public schools, prices would come down as private schools tried to reach that market. Before mandatory education, schools were operated by volunteers anyway, so there's no reason to assume they could not be again. Finally, education at home works very well.

Yeah, go ahead.  Keep worshiping your free market idol.  If we just sacrifice all to him, life will be wonderful.

Once again, I must insist - you show me a country where they have no public schools whatsoever and things are peachy, and I'll think about listening to your idea.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: On your second: I already answered it, but I will do so again.  Yes, I think we should throw murderers and thieves and rapists in jail.  This is because they have encroached on another person or their property.  I do not think that we should throw people in jail who do not encroached on other people or their property.  Therefore, I will criticize the government's threat of imprisonment to those who perform actions that do not threaten people or their property.

Ah, ok.  So let's think about this...in order to throw murderers and thieves and rapists in jail, what will we need?  Hmmm...probably...police...and probably courts and judges....  So, in order to have those things, what will we need?  TAXES!

Gosh, you Libertarians...I can't even think of a good word to describe you...Libertarians will have to suffice!  It's complete insanity!  "Taxes are evil!  Regulation is evil!  Imprisonment by the government is evil!  But we should imprison rapists and murderers and thieves...with our magical non-government police force run by unicorns and paid for by rainbows!"

dtguitarfan wrote: Ah, ok.  So let's think about this...in order to throw murderers and thieves and rapists in jail, what will we need?  Hmmm...probably...police...and probably courts and judges....  So, in order to have those things, what will we need?  TAXES! Gosh, you Libertarians...I can't even think of a good word to describe you...Libertarians will have to suffice!  It's complete insanity!  "Taxes are evil!  Regulation is evil!  Imprisonment by the government is evil!  But we should imprison rapists and murderers and thieves...with our magical non-government police force run by unicorns and paid for by rainbows!"

There exist private security firms and private detectives (police). There exist private adjudicators of disputes (courts and judges.) You continually jump to the conclusion that because something IS provided by the government it MUST be provided by the government or not at all. There is no reason to think that and history has shown that it is not the case.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Homeschooling has been practiced throughout history, and with the resources available to parents today, it's even easier.  The public school system has been developing in America for hundreds of years but most schools were locally run in the early days.  Most Swedish schools are municipally run; that's not technically "private" but it's a far cry from the centralized education system we have here.

Once again, I will return to the point I keep making: what about the single parents who don't make enough to be able to afford private school?  See, in order to be a good Libertarian, you basically have to be a jerk.  You have to not have an empathetic bone in your body.  I have empathy, therefore I cannot be a Libertarian.  I look at the number of people who couldn't afford private schools and the single parents and think to myself that public school is necessary.  And I'm glad that the rest of society has not yet bought into your Ayn Rand lies.

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: thellama73 wrote: There exist private security firms and private detectives (police). There exist private adjudicators of disputes (courts and judges.) I think we've been over this point a few months ago. Imagine I'm filthy rich. So rich in fact that I can form my own security firm whose only purpose is to protect me under any circumstances. Now imagine you're poor, so you can only afford basic protection for a low price. Now what happens if, for whatever reason, I decide to kill you (or steal from you, or whatever)? Do you think your security firm would spend time and effort on getting me into jail when I have a privately financed army behind me?

^^ THIS!  THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!

God, you people are stubborn.  Honestly, your whole system is built on the Ayn Rand idea of selfishness as a virtue: if I don't use it, I shouldn't pay for it.  If I don't WANT to pay for it, I shouldn't have to pay for it.  So in a society built on these ideas, you honestly think that the people who can afford to set up private security systems are going to SHARE?!!!!  Seriously?!!!

dtguitarfan wrote: See, in order to be a good Libertarian, you basically have to be a jerk.  You have to not have an empathetic bone in your body. God, you people are stubborn.

I think you should take a break from posting here.