"Freedom" thread or something |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 07:52 | |||||||||||
The 'liberty' to pollute the environment. The 'liberty' to exploit the poor and children in labour conditions not much different from slavery. The 'liberty' to create your private army. The 'liberty' to endanger public health for economical profit. The 'liberty' to have more children than the planet will be able to sustain in decent living conditions. The 'liberty' of destroying the arctic environment in search of gas and oil if this endangers the living environment of millions of people (because of sea-level increase). The 'liberty' of buying vital organs from people so desperate as to sell their kidney for a loaf of bread. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:20 | |||||||||||
Thanks much. I think several critics mistakenly think that Libertarians believe "people can do whatever they want and get away with it." That's far from the truth. What you've listed here is mostly a far cry from what we understand to be our inalienable rights. Libertarians defend "negative rights." If you don't mind, I'll offer a response to each of these to more specifically illustrate my meaning.
Libertarians respect property rights. Polluting the environment would encroach upon someone's property rights, would it not? No one is allowed to dump their refuse all over your fields, just as you could not vandalize someone's car. (Isn't it interesting that the "eco" in ecology and economy come from the same Greek word, which means "house?" )
The way this is worded is a bit loaded (for example, slavery is a condition itself, not a descriptor of conditions; I've read of slaves who had better living conditions than I presently have). It also presumes that there is an objective standard pertaining to what is acceptable regarding working conditions (I don't think there is). Even the word "exploit" is a loaded term (I'll say why in a second). Libertarians support contractual rights and obligations without unwanted outside interference. If a person is willing to do a job for $5 an hour but someone else complains, "This isn't fair; he should get $7.25 an hour," the latter person's concern is moot because it isn't his agreement to concern himself with. Regarding exploitation, I worked as an independent contractor for a company for four years, in which I made very little and worked long hours (usually twelve to fourteen a day). It was not quite enough to support my family, but what I earned paid most of the bills. My wife and I managed to make up the difference in other ways. Anyway, there is a class action lawsuit against the company for not providing proper wages and some such business. But you see, the company told me up front what I could expect to be paid, I agreed to the terms, and I worked to make whatever I could. Someone calls that "being exploited," and I call it "getting by when jobs were scarce."
What is wrong with a private army and how is it fundamentally different from a public one?
While I don't believe there is a such thing as "public health" (there's your health, my health, my wife's health, the neighbor's health, etc.), Libertarians do not believe someone is allowed to damage your health for profit unless you allow them to do so.
And that number is...what exactly? How do you propose we limit the number of children people are permitted to have?
I may have addressed this in my first response.
Libertarians believe that it's your organ and you can do what you want with it...though if you sell your kidney for a loaf of bread, wouldn't you have been better off eating it? Edited by Epignosis - June 17 2013 at 09:21 |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:22 | |||||||||||
Rob, let's focus on healthcare, because that's one area where your free market gods are never going to make things better. The fact is that if you're in healthcare for business, you're always going to have more leverage than the buyer because the buyer is willing to go bankrupt if their life is at stake. And the fact that socialized medicine works better for the people than our free market style healthcare is easily proven. Just look at prices - for example, if you go to Cuba (they have far less resources than we do, and yet are doing quite well with their socialized medicine), you can buy an inhaler for pennies. In America's greed driven society, it's over $100 for the same inhaler. But oh noes, any form of regulation from the government in this area would just be immoral and lead to Nazi Germany, right? (That was sarcasm, by the way.)
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:24 | |||||||||||
I live in Belgium, where it is forbidden to mow your lawn on Sunday because it may disturb your neighbours, and in my native Spain you may not wash your car in your driveway (because the soap will pollute the environment soil), or it is forbidden to put a 'For Sale' label in your car or motorbike, because it's considered to be 'public sales activity without having a business licence', so you can imagine that I would LOVE to have more liberty!
My point is, you start by regulating 'you may not kill and you may not steal', let time pass, and suddenly you find yourself having regulated 'you may not mow your lawn on Sundays' and 'you may not wash your car on the street'. Like it or not, that's the way it happens |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:44 | |||||||||||
So...you're not going to address anything I said in my previous post to you? Just change the subject? I've answered why healthcare (at least in the US) is so expensive and it has little to do with the free market. Here is one such place. If you are serious about understanding the high cost of healthcare, I would encourage you to read the article I linked to in that post. By the way, I don't think the word "fact" means what you think it does. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:52 | |||||||||||
Are you implying that in Belgium it's cool to disturb your neighbors Monday through Saturday? Murray Rothbard wrote about the core tenant of Libertarianism: It is wrong to murder and steal because the former is aggression against one's person and the latter is an aggression against one's property. These aren't "regulations of liberty" so much as they are violations of a core value. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:01 | |||||||||||
But how are you going to enforce libertarian values without a police force? Or is it advocated that those who cannot afford their private army should be left at the mercy of those who choose not to be abide by the principles that they ought to in theory. This is the way the govt creeps into our lives. We desire an orderly, reasonably comfortable life and to be insulated from disaster and crime to a large extent - these desires can only be fulfilled for a price. The feudal system would appear to have left the have nots at the mercy of the elements and since that has been rejected, people find the idea of a Big Brother to look after them very tempting. It is an indispensable part of modern life.
There was a discussion about the guy who's 'betrayed' USA earlier in the thread. I do appreciate his courage to stand up to govt interference but the fact is, we have accepted their intrusion in a big way for a long time whether knowingly or unknowingly. Isn't the city of London surveyed on CCTV 24/7? If your physical presence can barely evade the eyes of Big Brother, internet is small fry in comparison. And if we weren't watched over by USA, we would be by Mother Russia anyway, so it's not like there's really much of a choice.
Edited by rogerthat - June 17 2013 at 10:03 |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:07 | |||||||||||
Cuba is perhaps not the best example to use to tout socialized medicine or single payer systems. Stick with Europe. Hell, go with Brazil.
Edited by Padraic - June 17 2013 at 10:07 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:09 | |||||||||||
My native Spain is in a deep economical crisis since 2008 as some of you may have heard.
As most European countries it has been led by a moderate mix of liberal and social-democrat policies in the last 30 years, a bit more liberal than socialist, but now that crisis stroke, people demand that government does something about it, to help boost economy and people's life-standard and welfare. The fact is, the government can't do anything, it doesn't have any money to intervene. People demand the government to take measures to support employment for the youngsters, to help entrepreneurs starting their own business, to improve the competence level of those leaving University etc etc etc. As long as things go well everything looks pretty, let's be free, f**k the government, but when things go bad everybody turns to the government asking for support, countermeasures and solutions.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:12 | |||||||||||
That's pretty much what our Prime Minister told a delegation of top business leaders. He said in 2007 they had boasted that they don't need the govt anymore and now they are urging the govt to take decisive action to bring back growth. Fine, we are ready to help, he said (er, for a price ). |
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 24 2011 Location: Chattanooga, TN Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:24 | |||||||||||
I deliberately chose Cuba because it's not the best example. It's a choice that shows just how sh*tty our situation in America has become. Rob, no. I'm not going to answer all your convoluted points. Here are some reasons why: 1) I am doing this from a mobile phone. 2) You are a proud, stubborn man. I realize no amount of point/ counterpoint will ever change your mind on any issue. Therefore I have but one rule: if you disagree with a proposal I am making, you MUST give an alternate solution, and give an example of a country where this solution is being used. This is what I am making an effort to do - I am saying that government run healthcare works, and pointing to the many countries where it in fact does, such as Canada, England, France, etc. If you cannot do the same, I will simply ignore you. Because arguing with you is simply fruitless and exhausting, and I simply don't have time for it. In order to be scientific, you must point to systems where your principles are being played out and work. We're surrounded by economic systems in nature. The human body is one. What is it called when a small group of cells start to suck up all the resources of the body? Cancer. What does the body do about it? Send antibodies. Libertarians like to call this tyranny, because the body is actually trying to enforce regulations. |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:48 | |||||||||||
If murdering and stealing were the only evil things men were capable of doing I would be happy to be a libertarian.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 10:56 | |||||||||||
I see.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 11:10 | |||||||||||
The real issue is what you consider to be evil. That's what it comes down to, I suppose. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 11:20 | |||||||||||
If am as stubborn as you claim, then how did I become a Libertarian? I've only been one for about six years now. What in the world did I believe prior to that? Sorry Geoff, but you don't get to make rules and tell me what I MUST do (such humility on your part!). I asked you to clarify the word "works." There are those who would say the healthcare system in Canada, England, France, etc. "don't work." If we don't know what "works" means in this context, then I don't know what you are asking me to demonstrate.
White blood cells mean Libertarianism is wrong. All righty then. |
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 25 2011 Location: internet Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 11:32 | |||||||||||
The abolition of a police force is not something that most libertarians advocate. I certainly don't. Instead, I would advocate a limited police force that focuses on real crimes instead of sham infractions, drug wars, and the like. The police wouldn't have a monopoly on force, either, because each person would have the right to defend themselves and their neighbor from violence. I disagree that "Big Brother" is necessary to maintain an orderly society. The constitution provides for reasonable searches and seizures, as allowed by warrants issued to the police force with sufficient evidence. Crime can be handled in the manner prescribed by the constitution without having to resort to Orwellian tactics. |
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 25 2011 Location: internet Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 11:50 | |||||||||||
I don't think it's just that; I don't believe in the goodness of humanity, I think people are fundamentally sinful and that people do many evil things outside the realms of murder and theft. I just don't think that is is the responsibility of the government to pass legislation dealing with most of the other evil things that people do. The philandering husband is certainly doing evil to his faithful and longsuffering wife. But should the government regulate marital unfaithfulness? The overprotective parents are doing evil to their confined children, just as the libertine parents are doing evil by depriving their children of necessary discipline. But should government tell us how to raise our kids? Though these things are evil, it would be a greater evil for government to attempt to interfere. This is because 1. Government has been proven to be incompetent at dealing with such things, 2. people have a right to govern their own private lives, 3. government interference throws the door wide open for even greater government interference, which crushes people's liberties. Our choices always affect others, but in cases of indirect harm to others caused by individual choices, scenarios are far too complex and far too sensitive to be effectively handled by government. Similarly, in the case of business, many problems could easily be solved by replacing the many regulations exerted upon businesses by the government with one simple requirement: that businesses be honest about what they are selling to their customers. The open market would then effectively temper the greedy and exploitative tendencies of businessmen; for although businesses may not have a moral incentive to serve their customers will, they would certainly have an economic incentive to do so. |
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 25 2011 Location: internet Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 11:53 | |||||||||||
By the way Geoff, did you read the article I linked to in my reply to you? It simply and effectively answers the question of why no libertarian countries exist.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:04 | |||||||||||
All too often the polluted environment is nobody's property, or the affected parties are in such inferiority that they have no chance to defend themselves against the polluting big corporations. Have you not seen the (reality based) film Erin Brockovich?
I don't mind what working conditions you ever accepted, and I know and I understand that many people accept much worse conditions than you ever did, right to the edge (if not beyond) of what I would consider slavery. Offer and demand is simply not an acceptable justification IMO.
do I really need to answer to that? a (democratic) public army action depends on the population's votes, is that so difficult to understand? The existence of private armies (such as those by the Colombian drugs cartels) opens the door to chaos.
I will repeat the example of Erin Brockovich.
This is still green in our western world, and some see the Chinese law of 1 child per couple as unacceptably intrusive, but it will be coming, let's face it, human society can not survive with an exponential population growth, so at some point and with some rules procreation must be limited or the human race will suffer extreme pain for survival. How precisely this will need to be enforced I'm not the one to say, but I can just say that it's unavoidable ans society will need to decide how to enforce it.
Alright, libertarians think that this situation is okay, I don't.
Edited by Gerinski - June 17 2013 at 12:14 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32550 |
Posted: June 17 2013 at 12:07 | |||||||||||
Could you fix the quotes up there? I'm getting dizzy!
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