the importance of analog sound in prog

libertycaps wrote: Gerinski wrote: Dean wrote: libertycaps wrote: The only major problem i have with this arguement is how so many contemporary LPs are being pressed using digital masters. Defeats the whole point and purpose of the benefits of analogue playback mediums like LPs. So in short: Buyer be aware. This is one of those arguments that we can never prove because there are no 'A' and 'B' versions of those recordings to compare against each other. I guess that what Libertycaps meant was that those 'audiophilists' who rejoice themselves in how genuinely analog they are because they purchase an album in vinyl, may be fooling themselves and may be unknowingly be listening to a digitally-sourced recording. Correct. I guess i'm proud to be an "Audiophilist" too. Really though, i just love MUSE-IC. She deserves THE BEST gear i can afford.....

Agreed. However, what I said is valid and any counter argument presupposes that the digitally-sourced recording is inferior, which is something we can never prove one way or another. If people pay for the vinyl version and prefer it over the CD version from the same master (regardless of the source) then that is fine, but we can never prove that one source is better than another because different sources of the same recording cannot (by definition) exist.

Surrealist wrote: Moshkito, Regarding your post on the ideology of individuality that has been lost on this culture, don't you think digital editing, midi and sound sampling had a significant contribution to the squashing of individuality in the creating of recorded music? ...

Dean wrote: Gavin Harrison is too mechanical?

Dean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Dean wrote: Gavin Harrison is too mechanical?   No..definitely not. But to Pedro's taste?  Aye.

Digital has the potential to be better, it just often isn't.

Earwig O again.

The Original Vinyl Pressing Of..

"Jethro Tull ~ Stand Up" is far superior to any cd I've heard of it yet!
Also
"Stereo Separation" seems so much better on LPs than CDs,

The new "Genesis" masters I've heard are HOT as HELL, If these Re-Masters were pressed onto vinyl at the levels they are at, The needle would jump straight of the record, I suspect...

Edited by Cornelius - May 11 2013 at 11:52

I suspect several professional photographers would beg to differ on whether "anyone can aim and shoot their camera" and whether they are artists or not. You can start with Man Ray, Cecil Beaton, David Bailey, Brian Duffy, Ansel Adams and Annie Leibovitz (just naming six off the top of my head).

Everyone is an expert these days.  Painters are being run out of business because people are not buying art like they used to.  People are doing their own digital art garbage. Same with music.  Kids are creating songs in garage band without learning to play an instrument.  Digital garbage.  Spam Rock.  Hear it all the time.

Put down your computers kids.. it's time to grow up.

^True dat,

If the production is so bloody awful or the playing so ruddy amateur then no one will buy it no matter what equipment was used to produce it.

Dean, as always, you completely miss my point.. but that is to be expected. 

The digital age has been destructive on both ends... it's damaged the creative process, and the playback.  I understand a lot of people like yourself won't get the playback part because you don't have a decent enough stereo to tell the difference.  We've been through the argument about playback.  A vinyl record can sound far superior far inferior depending upon any number of things.  A bad pressing, worn out stylus, bad tubes or capacitors, bad crossovers, a dirty or scratched up recording etc. 

On the creative end.. we have to go back to the beginning.  Before the age of digital manipulation, sampling, auto tune, pitch shifters, infinite digital editing option..... there was a different approach toward a recording session.  A musician didn't walk into a studio with the idea that they could simply buy a perfect recording.  Artists spent much more time preparing for their recording.  Lot's of practice, not only with the track, but also getting their gear lined up... and balancing their sound developments within the context of their presentation.  The listeners who bought records did so with a certain expectation.  This expectation included the possibility that production values even from major record companies could vary significantly.  Certain producers and engineers had reputations, some good and some bad.  But if a record was bad, a lot more of the blame would fall upon the artist themselves. 

The way things were done... recording onto tape reels spanned the entire industry.  It could be good or bad as far as production values.  There was not the homogenizing expectation that is going on today. 

In any serious studio today... everything is going to be fixed.  Every track can be manipulated.  Drums played out of time can be lined up on the computer screen and fixed.  So can the bass.  Guitars don't need to develop their sound before it hits the mic... nor do keyboards.  Vocals can be fixed with pitch shifters and auto tune. 

Modern recordings coming out of the serious studios are so dishonest... that the dishonestly has now become common fair.  It's expected.  It's accepted.

Where this has hurt the most is in the Prog Rock genre.  Because the Proggers have lost their advantage.... that being their ability to showcase superior musicianship and even compositional skills.  While tape splicing was around to edit and move things around.. it's nothing like the copy and paste option that is afforded artists today with complete ease. 

The artitsts in the pasts were forced to wrap their head around the music much more.  It forced them to internalize their music to a much greater degree than just leaving it all stored on a hard drive. 

It's the limitations that forced them to play better, to be more internally creative, to prepare better, to work with their fellow musicians in a more cohesive and inclusive manner.

Have you listened to a rap record?  There is often nothing real or live going on.  The entire thing is samples and loops and copy and paste.  Kids who hear this today are being subjected to an expectation.  If the same kids who heard this computer generated music were to hear a prog album it would not have the same effect upon them as it would have 30 years ago.. even if the prog album were recorded by real musicians in real time onto a tape machine.... because the underlaying assumption is that the recording process is the same.  So while one is real, the other is fake, but to the casual listener, they have no understanding of this.  Zero.... nada, and even the great stuff will fall upon deaf ears.

So in the past it was understood that drums were played by drummers on a drumset and what you heard was ALWAYS the exact feel of the performer.  Nowadays, not only does anyone assume this to be true... most wouldn't know but more importantly wouldn't care.  THE WOULDN"T CARE! 

So what needs to happen is for serious musicians to take back the industry and start labeling recordings as DIGITAL FREE.

This way as slow re education could begin to take place.  So when discussions go on around the high school campus about music.. you might start hearing things like ...

Hey dude.. what kind of music to you like? " Oh, I like the digital free stuff... I'm not into that fake crap all you idiots listen to." 

Digital free? WTF is that?  

"that's when musicians actually have to play their music... and it actually sounds better too."  You should come over my house and listen to some stuff I found from the 1970's. They didn't have computers back then, and the guys actually had to play this stuff.  there is this trippy band called Gentle Giant... check this sh*t out!"