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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
![]() Posted: March 17 2013 at 19:47 |
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I saw a program discussing the popularity of Journey's "Don't Stop Believing" and it's chords were traced back to "Let in be" (Beatles ofcourse) over Elton John and many (like 120+) others' hits over the years following 1969.
Funny thing is that I recently finally got around to Elton John and his albums in full (not just what I hear/heard accidentially on radio) and immediately linked the intro of "Don't stop believing" to Elton when discussed in the program.
I seem to remember another program where Lous Armstrong described "Let it be" as a psalm. Which psalm/psalms would that be?
Or is "Let it be" just as generic and a pattern for a majority of hits following it as the program wants it to be?
Edited by earlyprog - March 17 2013 at 19:50 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Let It Be makes use of the Plagal Cadence, (IV to I) which is also known as the "Amen" Cadence because of its frequent used for the word "Amen" in hymns, and it maintains that in the chord progression I-V-IV-I through the song - the song's melody also stays in one key, which another feature of hymns. This gives the song a hymn or psalm like quality. Paul McCartney used this often because hymns formed part of how he learnt music - he did not know music theory nor could he read music, but he knew how hymns were played. The Beatles certainly didn't invent this, but they may have been the first to use it in a non-gospel pop tune.
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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Your take on this much appreciated, Dean.
I was listening to the album The Captian & the Kid by Elton John last night and couldn't help singing let it be on top of it and the theory appears to be valid. I ended up getting annoyed by it and I wish I had continued being ignorant on this idea! I even heard Harrison's (post let it be) slide guitar on the album....and Paul's distinct bass lines.
I'm not a music conservatory literate but this hymn-like song - in Beatles context - seems to go back to Hey Jude.
What do you think?
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I don't know how far it goes back but Eight Days A Week would be an early example.
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geneyesontle ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 14 2012 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 1266 |
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Green Day, U2, The Offspring, Toto, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, The Rolling Stones, Blink 182, Adele, James Blunt, Lady Gaga, Kelly Clarkson, Nicki Minaj, Mika and Taylor Swift (many of them are pop artists we don't care) also used this chord progression.
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Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle |
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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Axis of Awesome - 4 chord song:
Now I get it:
Four Chords That Made A Million (Steven Wilson)
Edited by earlyprog - March 20 2013 at 11:28 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 18385 |
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Sometimes I wish I knew music more intimately ... that's really far out Dean! And, no doubt, someone like Jeff Lynne would probably know something like that!
Edited by moshkito - March 20 2013 at 12:41 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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In basic terms each chord made of three or more notes from a scale based upon the root note of the chord, (so if the first chord "I" is an E[major] the scale is E-major); a chord progression is formed by taking subsequent chords that have a harmonic relationship to the preceding chord. With the basic three-chord trick (I-IV-V) the progression uses every note in the ("I" chord) scale so will fit with any melody written in that key, for example
the scale of E-major = E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#
A major chord is created by taking the first, third and fifth note of that scale and playing them together.
E is the 1st note in the E-major scale so the I chord is E = [ E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#] <- 1,3,5 in the scale of E-major
A is the 4th note in the E-major scale so the IV chord is A = [A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G#] <- 1,3,5 in the scale of A-major
B is the 5th note in the E-major scale so the V chord is B = [B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#] <- 1,3,5 in the scale of B-major
putting those chords on the E-major scale looks like this:
I (E) = [E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E,F#]
IV (A) = [E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,F#] <- I've shown the E coming from the next octave up here V (B) = [E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,F#] <- I've shown the F# coming from the next octave up here.
Note that chords A[maj] and B[maj] both share a note with the E[maj] chord (E and B respectively)
What this means is the song's melody can be written using any of the notes of the E-major scale and still be harmonious with the three chosen chords - essentially if you stick to those three chords you cannot mess it up no matter what you do.
The basic four-chord progression [ I - V - vi - IV] introduces a minor chord "vi" (lowercase denotes a minor chord)
C# is the 6th note in the scale so the vi chord is C#[minor] = [C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A,B,C#] <- 1,3,5 in the scale of C#-minor
Which in E-major scale = [E,F#,G#,A,B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#]
...so you can see that still uses notes from the E-major scale (and shares two notes with the E[maj] chord), if the progression had used a VI major chord then the three notes would have been C#, F, G#, and here the "F" note is not in the E-major scale so would be "wrong" if we are playing a melody in E-major.
/edit: note that the C#-minor scale uses all the same notes as the E-major scale, because of this C#-minor is called a relative key of E-major
~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+
Contrary to popular belief, Prog (and Jazz) doesn't throw all that out the window and ignore this basic format. In the above example you can use an VI major chord in the progression, you just need to find a trick to deal with the "F" note to resolve the dissonance.
Edited by Dean - March 20 2013 at 18:41 |
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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^of course, you took the words right out of my mouth! tell me somethimg I don't know Edited by earlyprog - March 20 2013 at 18:44 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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sorry for wasting your time. It won't happen again.
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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Apologies, Dean
![]() Your chord analysis is very helpful even for an ignorant fool like me
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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In English 'tell me something I don't know' is sarcasm, not irony.
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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![]() ![]() Wikipedia links irony to sarcasm:
Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt", usually conveyed through irony or understatement. Most authorities distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence. Edited by earlyprog - March 21 2013 at 10:55 |
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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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My dad played the harmonica and was self-taught in the truest sense of the word, he never had a lesson, was never shown what to do; one day if found an old mouth-organ and experimented with it until he could produce a tune that sounded right to his ear. He would hear a tune on the radio he liked and out would come the harmonica, within a few minutes he would be playing the basic melody. If you ever asked him what notes he was playing he wouldn't have a clue, he would sound a note on the mouth-organ and say "that one".
He once told me (sometime in the 1960s) that if I wanted to learn to play I should start by playing hymns because they were simple and easy to pick-up, his rationale was they had to be simple so untrained people could sing them in church. He'd also noticed that you could sing the words to one hymn to the tune of another.and this was something they shared with folk music, [again - simple tunes that anyone could sing]. It was obvious to him that Lennon and McCartney had learnt music this way because of what he could pick-up "by ear" in their songs (hymns and folk music), another truism he said at the time was "pop and rock'n'roll was just folk music played on modern instruments".
Later in life, once I'd learnt a small amount of music theory, I could understand from theory all those things he'd observed "by ear".
/eidt PS: This link between folk music and hymns can be heard in Steeleye Span's Fighting For Strangers - an old folk song sang to the tune of the hymn "To Be A Pilgrim"
There is a long-running BBC radio programme called I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue (known as ISIHAC) that features a section of popular songs sung to different tunes - Tiny Hawks singing "Girlfriend In A Coma" to the tune of "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" is something to be heard to be believed.
![]() Edited by Dean - March 22 2013 at 07:07 |
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earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2163 |
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^Great post, Dean, linking past to present
![]() ((Collect all posts similar to this and you may end up with a prog related self biography - perhaps a blog?))
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