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Topic ClosedIs Steven Wilson making Prog music?

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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2013 at 09:36
To answer the OP, I think yes he is prog, in his own musical way....Forgetting about the prog lords of old. I prefer to say Steven Wilson is making progressive music......I don't care much for the word "prog", I have no idea if he is prog, but he does make progressive music.
 
I mean just the title of his new album is progressive. There is a large amount of progressive juices flowing thru this album, as in GFD.
 
Last year standing in line for his concert in Seattle, nobody was talking about PT, everyone was talking about Storm Corrosion, No-man and Blackfield. A few people close to me had never even heard FoABP or The Incident.....It seemed to them Steven Wilson had no connection to Porcupine Tree.
 
He is making some absolutely great music, and when you encompass his glaring skills as a producer and remastering engineer and his attention to musical detail, a lot of what is coming out is close to genius work...but at the lowest level he is doing brilliant work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 08:17
Well, I've never really thought of Porcupine Tree as being very progressive, though they certainly had a number of prog elements to their sound.  That didn't stop me from enjoying, and even loving, their music.  I would say Wilson's solo stuff is decidedly REGRESSIVE, as it's quite plainly a nostalgia trip.  That said, I think it's fantastic and done with such skill, conviction and feeling that it hardly matters what you call it, it's just great music (but as retro as any of the bands accused of being retro prog on this site......to me, there is nothing wrong with that at all).

What bugs me is the use of the word "overrated" and "underrated".  Bands and artists are "rated" exactly as they should be, obviously.  Whether or not an individual thinks otherwise is completely irrelevant.  I don't understand the popularity of Beyonce or Justin Timberlake, for instance, but that doesn't matter to their fans at all.

Wilson is undeniably the most well known and popular prog related musician currently, so he obviously "rates" for a lot of people (and even being the most popular "prog" musician, that popularity is STILL dwarfed by the two acts I mentioned previously.......something that will baffle me until the day I die).


Edited by infandous - March 15 2013 at 08:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 09:02
^ With those two artists, there is additional stuff they do that bring them into the main stream, Beyonce is making TV commercials for makeup and such, so she gets a lot of pop culture exposure that I suspect gets her a lot of interest in her music..but regardless she is very popular person now.....Same as Justin Timberlake, his appearances on SNL are becoming very popular, it helps a lot.
 
I suspect if Steven Wilson made TV commercials or appeared on Jay Leno or SNL the interest in his music from the main stream media would jump quite a bit.....and I am not saying we or he wants that.
But I agree with you, a lot of these pop acts dwarf what SW or PT have done or might do in the future.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 09:35
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

What bugs me is the use of the word "overrated" and "underrated".  

That's weird that it would bug you. To say that a band is underrated suggests that they are being over-looked or undervalued, and someday this error may be corrected. Embedded within these terms is the notion that value judgments are temporal, unstable, and subject to constant revision and reevaluation. For example, Talk Talk were very underrated; in their time, they were critically maligned, considered to be derivative at best and hopelessly out-of-date at worst, and ignored by the general public. Only as time went by were they re-evaluated, rescued from obscurity and exalted to the 'canon'.

I think it's interesting to consider the case of Floyd's Ummagumma, how it was received at the time, its influence, and its waning popularity. At the time of its release, many critics in England hailed the album as Floyd's best, a masterpiece, in which they finally realized their potential. Both the studio album and the live album were obviously very influential; indeed, this might be Floyd's most "Germanic" album. However, shifting values and the dominance of American music magazines (as well as the strong ideology of American critics) led to the album's being increasing dismissed, till today it has the reputation of being mediocre. Personally, I love the studio album, and consider it to be underrated by most.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 10:09
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I would say Wilson's solo stuff is decidedly REGRESSIVE, as it's quite plainly a nostalgia trip.

The spirit of the times. To paraphrase Marx, there's a spectre weighing on all of us; the ghosts of the past [i.e. Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Tull] haunt the brains of the living. The very ones forging any kind of future for prog as a forward-looking music rather than a curator of the past are probably the very ones that would have a hard time getting into PA (like the Flaming Lips, Aphex Twin and Future Sound of London,  LOL), because they're least bound by genre conventions, which over time ossify and solidify into a fossilized, restrictive shackle. Great works almost always play with the idea of genre; that's the contradiction of genre, in that the closer you look, the more porous are its borders.

An idea bandied about a lot for the past decade is "hauntology." Usually it's used in connection with electronic artists like Boards of Canada, Burial, the Caretaker (i.e. Leyland Kirby), William Basinski, and others like Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti. It's the idea of the absent present being colonized and haunted by the past. (No one else has said this, but in film, the best representation of this would have to be the Japanese horror film, Kairo/Pulse. The present is literally being hollowed out and emptied, while ghosts flood into the present, haunting the shadows and the white noise of electronic pulses.)

I'm not saying this fits Wilson. The whole retro thing's been going on for some time now in music, and I'm not talking about prog, but also pop and rock and jazz and blues; hauntology's the next level, and I'm not sure it describes any band or musician in PA. I can only imagine how cool a 'prog hauntology' could be. Ghostly mellotrons; disembodied wailing voices; great music yet to be made and scarcely imagined :-)

There's loads of articles on 'hauntology'; here's one the purports to be a primer (I haven't read it yet): http://www.nightoftheworld.com/writingfiles/hauntprimer.html

And here are some of my favorite songs that would be described as "hauntological": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfTwqBfxgohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtNPzaHO7khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwId2SIqPQ


Edited by jude111 - March 15 2013 at 12:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

What bugs me is the use of the word "overrated" and "underrated".  

That's weird that it would bug you. To say that a band is underrated suggests that they are being over-looked or undervalued, and someday this error may be corrected. Embedded within these terms is the notion that value judgments are temporal, unstable, and subject to constant revision and reevaluation. For example, Talk Talk were very underrated; in their time, they were critically maligned, considered to be derivative at best and hopelessly out-of-date at worst, and ignored by the general public. Only as time went by were they re-evaluated, rescued from obscurity and exalted to the 'canon'.

I think it's interesting to consider the case of Floyd's Ummagumma, how it was received at the time, its influence, and its waning popularity. At the time of its release, many critics in England hailed the album as Floyd's best, a masterpiece, in which they finally realized their potential. Both the studio album and the live album were obviously very influential; indeed, this might be Floyd's most "Germanic" album. However, shifting values and the dominance of American music magazines (as well as the strong ideology of American critics) led to the album's being increasing dismissed, till today it has the reputation of being mediocre. Personally, I love the studio album, and consider it to be underrated by most.


While I don't disagree with anything here (I love Ummagumma, as well as Talk Talk), I'm not really sure how it addresses what I wrote.  Those two words are simply value judgments based on personal opinion.  Everything your wrote reinforces the uselessness of such words.  Ummagumma was created and released in a very different time.  Tastes, styles, and fashions change, and so did the perception of the album.....not for you and I, but that doesn't mean we are right and everyone else is wrong.  I don't get the impression that "mainstream" opinion has changed at all in relation to Talk Talk's later albums either.  Just in the case of some folks on this board, though I'm no expert on what people think about them.

What bugs me about the terms is that people imply that their view is correct and everyone with a contrary view is not.  I find that absurd when talking about music.  Your millage may differ.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:10
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Tastes, styles, and fashions change, and so did the perception of the album.....not for you and I, but that doesn't mean we are right and everyone else is wrong.  I don't get the impression that "mainstream" opinion has changed at all in relation to Talk Talk's later albums either.  Just in the case of some folks on this board, though I'm no expert on what people think about them.

What bugs me about the terms is that people imply that their view is correct and everyone with a contrary view is not.  I find that absurd when talking about music.  Your millage may differ.

Values don't just change randomly; rather, they are contested, and it is through struggle and contestation that they change. When a person says "this album is underrated," they are entering that struggle, contesting received wisdom and hegemonic discourses. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:16
The problem about the whole thing though is the fact that most people don't necessarily use those terms in the correct manner. It looses it's meaning by people slinging around phrases like David Gilmour is underrated, because they feel they love his work even more than others, and that folks should immediately start loving him even harder...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:20
The Beatles?  Underrated.  Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:34
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

The Beatles?  Underrated.  Stern Smile
As downhill skiers perhaps.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:52
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

I would say Wilson's solo stuff is decidedly REGRESSIVE, as it's quite plainly a nostalgia trip.

The spirit of the times. To paraphrase Marx, there's a spectre weighing on all of us; the ghosts of the past [i.e. Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Tull] haunt the brains of the living. The very ones forging any kind of future for prog as a forward-looking music rather than a curator of the past are probably the very ones that would have a hard time getting into PA (like the Flaming Lips, Aphex Twin and Future Sound of London,  LOL), because they're least bound by genre conventions, which over time ossify and solidify into a fossilized, restrictive shackle. Great works almost always play with the idea of genre; that's the contradiction of genre, in that the closer you look, the more porous are its borders.

An idea bandied about a lot for the past decade is "hauntology." Usually it's used in connection with electronic artists like Boards of Canada, Burial, the Caretaker (i.e. Leyland Kirby), William Basinski, and others like Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti. It's the idea of the absent present being colonized and haunted by the past. (No one else has said this, but in film, the best representation of this would have to be the Japanese horror film, Kairo/Pulse. The present is literally being hollowed out and emptied, while ghosts flood into the present, haunting the shadows and the white noise of electronic pulses.)

I'm not saying this fits Wilson. The whole retro thing's been going on for some time now in music, and I'm not talking about prog, but also pop and rock and jazz and blues; hauntology's the next level, and I'm not sure it describes any band or musician in PA. I can only imagine how cool a 'prog hauntology' could be. Ghostly mellotrons; disembodied wailing voices; great music yet to be made and scarcely imagined :-)

There's loads of articles on 'hauntology'; here's one the purports to be a primer (I haven't read it yet): http://www.nightoftheworld.com/writingfiles/hauntprimer.html

And here are some of my favorite songs that would be described as "hauntological": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfTwqBfxgohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtNPzaHO7khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwId2SIqPQ



Thanks for that. Very interesting.  As I said, I have no problem with retro and regressive, if it's done well and appeals to me.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:53
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Tastes, styles, and fashions change, and so did the perception of the album.....not for you and I, but that doesn't mean we are right and everyone else is wrong.  I don't get the impression that "mainstream" opinion has changed at all in relation to Talk Talk's later albums either.  Just in the case of some folks on this board, though I'm no expert on what people think about them.

What bugs me about the terms is that people imply that their view is correct and everyone with a contrary view is not.  I find that absurd when talking about music.  Your millage may differ.

Values don't just change randomly; rather, they are contested, and it is through struggle and contestation that they change. When a person says "this album is underrated," they are entering that struggle, contesting received wisdom and hegemonic discourses. 



Fair enough.  Then they need to explain why they feel that way, which rarely seems to happen around here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 12:57
'Underrated' is not as emotive as "overrated" ... someone saying Gilmour is underrated isn't going to get quite the reaction that saying he is overrated will.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 13:06
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

'Underrated' is not as emotive as "overrated" ... someone saying Gilmour is underrated isn't going to get quite the reaction that saying he is overrated will.

Well that's a given. You'll also notice how some folks only tends to focus on the word overrated - like was it a leaver to heave people out of their sockets.
We have the occasional wave of classic prog haters, who take swipes at any "holy" album in order to provoke controversy and angry posts. 
Not that I'm generalising(maybe slightly), but sometimes it does seem like certain individuals come here for the brawls instead of the brains.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 13:39
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Tastes, styles, and fashions change, and so did the perception of the album.....not for you and I, but that doesn't mean we are right and everyone else is wrong.  I don't get the impression that "mainstream" opinion has changed at all in relation to Talk Talk's later albums either.  Just in the case of some folks on this board, though I'm no expert on what people think about them.

What bugs me about the terms is that people imply that their view is correct and everyone with a contrary view is not.  I find that absurd when talking about music.  Your millage may differ.

Values don't just change randomly; rather, they are contested, and it is through struggle and contestation that they change. When a person says "this album is underrated," they are entering that struggle, contesting received wisdom and hegemonic discourses. 

This might be true if you are interested in establishing a definitive canon of 'respected' or 'established' works. Many "professional" critics seem to work that way, but I'd wager that the average music listener couldn't care less. He listens to what he likes and ignores the rest. I consider the canonization of any kind of art (not just music) beyond personal best-of lists to be a rather futile exercise that has little practical value. Whenever I hear phrases like" 1001 albums you must hear before you die", I feel like smashing something.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:13
if someday PA decides to add Lady Gaga as a Prog artist and people find her here they rate her as one of the top ten artists in the lists , then we would say she is overrated in PA. the term overrated for artists like Wilson and Gilmour is in the same direction because this site is for Prog fans not for blues fans or pop fans and the ratings here should reflect the taste of Prog lovers, so when i see Wilson as one of the top 20 in the "top prog albums of all time" i will use the term Overrated because i expect to see artists with higher level of prog music in their work as top 20 here( in this specific site).  when Wilson is highly rated in Allmusic (for example) i`ll never wonder why.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:36
Originally posted by sorcerer kermes sorcerer kermes wrote:

if someday PA decides to add Lady Gaga as a Prog artist and people find her here they rate her as one of the top ten artists in the lists , then we would say she is overrated in PA. the term overrated for artists like Wilson and Gilmour is in the same direction because this site is for Prog fans not for blues fans or pop fans and the ratings here should reflect the taste of Prog lovers, so when i see Wilson as one of the top 20 in the "top prog albums of all time" i will use the term Overrated because i expect to see artists with higher level of prog music in their work as top 20 here( in this specific site).  when Wilson is highly rated in Allmusic (for example) i`ll never wonder why.
Incorrect in every way imaginable. If people rate an artist (whoever that is) into the top ten list then they are rated exactly as they should be rated. It is arrogance to say otherwise.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 15:56
Lady Gaga is not a prog artist but im sure she will get a high rating here! if you dont believe it try it and add her as a prog artist!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:24
Originally posted by sorcerer kermes sorcerer kermes wrote:

Lady Gaga is not a prog artist but im sure she will get a high rating here! if you dont believe it try it and add her as a prog artist!
 
You haven't been here long enough to realize how silly that statement is.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2013 at 16:32
LOL
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