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Kashmir75 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 25 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1029 |
 Posted: March 09 2013 at 00:26 |
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Yeah, I'm in Melbourne too, and most JB Hi Fi outlets have a good selection of Porcupine Tree, and Wilson's solo albums. And the ones I can't get there, I buy online. So it's no problem accessing his music. As for the Raven, I avoided the leaks, and waited til my ordered copy arrived in the mail.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 21:14 |
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^^^^ I can't order 90% of the new stuff that's listed on PA...or I could, but it might be very expensive. I would have to use credit card rather than netbanking or COD and pay the equivalent of the album price as shipping. These are the economies we lose as music drifts further from the music industry. Albums that have done good business for the industry are very easily available, whether in the remaining brick-and-mortar stores or in ecommerce portals and I don't have to pay shipping when the portal is based in my country. And many of these albums that did good business are prog classics, like DSOTM, TAAB, Moving Pictures and so on so I don't get the disdain for the industry's role in making music available. Yes, they may have fleeced several artists back in the day but did they really stand in the way of getting music out to the fan? I don't think so, unless you're talking about bootlegs. It's all very fine and dandy and idealistic to bash the industry but it's worth bearing in mind that an artist needs to survive and make a living and the industry offered/offers a means of livelihood to them, that's slowly fading away.
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 13:14 |
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I agree that illegal downloads cannot be stopped, though the high-seas analogy is woefully inappropriate/inapplicable and more than a little missleading, international commerce would have failed pretty quickly if there were millions of pirates (ie anyone who owned a boat) rather than just a few. Illegal downloading will hurt all the legal downloading routes, that is as inevitable as leaked ablums appearing on the internet.
Perhaps I'm not as jaded about record labels and distrubutors as you are, but I don't see why they have to go.
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 12:37 |
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But going back and addressing the original topic, I don't think Steven Wilson is out of line asking people to buy his stuff.
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 12:27 |
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Well, I would get rid of the notion that online illegal downloads can be stopped. They're always gonna be there,no matter how many grandmas get fined millions of dollars. The point was, those middle-man distribution channels have got to go. I do think the illegal downloading would be helped if there was a direct means to access the artist and pay them more directly (and not Spotify,iTunes,etc) and receive the content immediately, without spyware. This would especially be nice in cases were albums are rare/out of print, etc. Piracy is here to stay. But it doesn't have to mean the end of music as we know it. Just like pirates on the actual seas never stopped international commerce from continuing back in the day.
Edited by Failcore - March 08 2013 at 12:28 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 11:31 |
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:47 |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: March 08 2013 at 10:34 |
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Well, quite a lot of artists do it the way it's depicted in the final panel. They aren't getting rich (or anywhere close to rich), but at least they get paid for their work this way. The big difference is that even though the record companies screwed musicians out of most of their royalties, in some cases the musicians still did okay or very well because of the sheer numbers of sales.........which was only possible because of record company promotion and resources. The artist selling direct to fans really is never going to achieve the kind of success that bands had in the 70's and 80's. Of course, that probably doesn't matter to them, since for most genuine artists the money is not the primary concern. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 19:16 |
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Either guilt complex, as he said, or just feeling targeted. There were some comments of outrage in the FB link where Wilson posted this and they all claimed to have ordered it but to have also downloaded the leak because they couldn't wait to hear it. They thought of it as an attack on them for some reason. It was not but as Dean said, people get offended very easily these days. Wilson's concern is obviously that many of these downloads may not translate into album sales ever, and it is quite a legitimate one, he's not being paranoid there at all, as some of those who attacked him on FB said he was. |
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 16:22 |
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http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry /thread (but probably not) Edited by Failcore - March 07 2013 at 16:22 |
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 16:10 |
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Music DL=Satan . And Satan is bad. Don't be like Satan. Unless you are downloading Black Metal. Then I guess it's okay.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 14:44 |
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^ What I don't understand is why would anyone think of this request as inappropriate or controversial.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 07 2013 at 14:46 |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 14:27 |
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Well said Tom. Wilson simply asked, very politely, for people to please pay for his music (i.e. hard work, monetary investment, time investment, lively hood, etc.). The only people who consider such a request inappropriate and/or controversial are those who feel guilt (however buried deep down it may be) about taking his hard work and not paying for it. It's astounding to me that this even needs to be said. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 07 2013 at 03:02 |
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I feel no shame in not seeing "Magic Trip", I feel no shame about not seeing something that does not interest me, a film by people who are not my contemporaries, about a subculture I have no affinity with or respect for, set in a country I have no connection to, about a time I have no experience of. If Kesey sits between the beatniks and the hippies then I sit between the hippies and the punks (but I have no affinity with those subcultures either), I was seven in 1964, Prog Rock was my generation and that was not a subculture.
However, that is all irrelevant. Bootlegs are not the same as pirated studio albums. The biggest names in rock music were bootlegged beyond comprehension but they also sold a hell of a lot of studio albums - the bootleggers fed off that popularity. When the pirates steal the remaining sources of revenue for an artist they become the parasite that kills the host.
Yes, you left home, we all grow up and leave home, we all fly the nest. The problem with this metaphor/analogy is that it is both specious and not even relevant. An album of music is not a living creature, it is created with the same love and devotion perhaps and is poetically called the artist's baby but that is as far as the similarity can be extended, it is the artist's property and for that it is covered by copyright, both of creation and of performance - the album of music remains with its creator for the lifetime of the the artist plus 70 years (in the UK, the USA says 50 years) UNLESS the artists choses to relinquish his copyright - and that his choice, not yours and not anybody's but his own.
Yes, you left home, you were not stolen from your mother's womb by pirates.
My father was a carpenter, he is not in the Encyclopedia Britannica, the church where his ashes are buried misplaced his plot so we're not sure where his remains lay, he has no legacy but flesh and blood and when I die our family name dies with me, so you can kiss the ars gratia artis. Edited by Dean - March 07 2013 at 03:05 |
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Roland113
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 30 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3843 |
Posted: March 06 2013 at 14:40 |
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Sorry to wade in here, but I somewhat disagree with this statement. Pedro, I gather you're a musician and have 'lost' a good amount of music over the years. It also seems that you're accepting of this, which is your choice. As a musician, you have the right to pick your battles as you see fit. When something like this is debated in this forum, there are people that are reading it and not commenting. There have been almost four thousand 'reads' of this thread alone. I'm certainly not saying that four thousand different people have read the thread, but I would guess more people have read it without commenting. If by our arguments, we can convince ten people to buy their music rather than steal it, then some good has been done. Furthermore, as one of the premier progressive rock web sites on the internet, we rely on many different walks of life to maintain that credibility. If we condone, even implicitly, illegal downloading of music, we loose a certain amount of credibility with the artists themselves. We, as a web community, are honored by the musicians that frequent our website. Frankly, I'm not willing to compromise our reputation as a community by not giving the people that steal music a free pass for any reason. I've had conversations with artists that I respect tremendously, Phideaux Xavier, John Young, Jonas Reingold, Nad Sylvan . . . Each and every time I talk with one of these artists, I'm able to hold my head up high when I talk about our website because we have a good reputation. As I said, I'm not willing to let that reputation to be tarnished by taking any other stance other than what Dean and many other have said. As I said, I disagree with your statement. There may be a lot of people that will never be convinced that illegal downloading is a bad thing, but this is not a dead end conversation, this is relevant to many people that aren't commenting here.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18063 |
Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:21 |
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Btw, it's a shame that you can not make yourself sit and watch "The Trip", the documentary about Ken Kesey and others, about that time, and what came out of it. The GF is not a good representative of the literary tradition that folowed and helped bring about the psychedelia thing ... in some ways ... it had a lot more to do with something else ... and there is one moment in there ... that even you will appreciate ... and is Ken's comment about Nurse Ratchet. And the best comment of all is towards the end ... a very profound statement that is very subtle and pretty much tells you that everyone forgot what it was all about and just went to get stoned! I didn't! And my comments are from someone that did believe, and is not afraid to explain them ... and I still see the remnants and the fruits of the work fro those days ... there are not many generations that MAKE A MARK or a statement like mine and yours did ... agree or not ... we stood out! ... for one reason or another! And yes, I did leave home, because in EVERY HOUSE, COUNTRY and such there already IS a God and the children don't mean anything ... that is the only bitterness I have about my family! 9 kids, and totally screwed up because of the God in the house! I can speak -- NOT -- from an idea! He maybe in the Brittanica and honorably buried in Portugal and whatever and whatever, but what he left behind was a legacy of ... who gives a damn! ... so go ahead and try and be forceful! and kissful to a legacy!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:21 |
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 Eh?So, if I read all this correctly, someone uploading a copy of Wilson's latest studio album BEFORE it was released is not stealing, it is, in your assessment, no worse than having a roadie recording a bootleg tape from the soundboard at a gig. As long as the ART has been made available for all to listen to then the ARTIST has nothing to complain about.
 Eh?So, if I read all this correctly, someone uploading a copy of Wilson's latest studio album BEFORE it was released is not stealing, it is, in your assessment, perfectly acceptable and if the ARTIST has made a few bucks to cover his expenses then that's a bonus and he has nothing to complain about.
That smells pretty rank to me.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18063 |
Posted: March 06 2013 at 13:02 |
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I disagree. In those days, it was very different than today. There were, I'm sure just as many tapes lost as there were tapes stolen. But in the end, you missed the point. You will ALWAYS lose something ... willingly or not! In this case, likely stolen ... by someone he paid to be there, no less! However ... bootlegs were a very good record of the person and a "diary" of sorts. The pirated/stolen copies (half the time it's their own roadies getting extra dollars!) ... so what? What do you expect? Papparazzi want to see your bees and your chees and your sunglasses and catch you with the bra hanging out and what not ... they don't care about anything else ... and if you want to go on a brigade against them go ahead ... but the fact is ... that just as much is out there "stolen" as it is "given out" ... and hearing someone that has so much complaining, is a bit like ... I want more money because I want to get a Jaguar or a Ferrari, instead of a Corvette. YOU will not have any sentiment on that any more than I do! ...
Dean ... you are old enough to know that sometimes, people go their own way ... like it or not ... and that's that ... and you as a parent have a choice ... you either love them and appreciate their desire ... or go ahead and hate them, and go to church every Sunday swearing and complaining about having a child ... and sometimes, you lose a child along the way ... so what? You continue to live! Your emotions may die for a while ... but you continue to live. But hating your child for making his choice? ... he/she will know soon enough that ... here is my house ... you are making your own ... and there is nothing wrong with that! ARTS, in order to make it, and GET somewhere, you just about have to leave home each and every damn time, just so folks like you and I can talk about it and end up calling it "progressive" 30 and 40 years later ... and here you are criticizing it something that happens over time ... and like it or not ... is a part of life and reality. But to stand up, here, or anywhere else, as a stand-offish parent ... ok ... it's your choice ... I understand that, but you do not see my experience, and continually state that my experience is not "valid" ... the main difference was that I did NOT do as many drugs as everyone around me ... and I went for these different things, instead of top ten and top of the pops! I appreciate Steven's work a lot, as you well know ... but I don't see the point of any of these folks complaining ... almost none of us, will ever even have a CD made and have 10 people listen to it and say something about it in Prog Archives ... and today, we've become so callous to the artistry and the work behind it, that we act like we don't care. I care tremendously ... but complaining to you, or to anyone here on the board ... is a DEAD END ... and in the end, really bad PR ... because some folks will get pee'd off for whatever reason. There is a very wide gulf between NEED ... and GREED ... just remember that ... and I think that Steven will know ... even better ... how to handle it next time, so nothing gets stolen or get out before he is ready to release it. He'll probably have to play all the instruments himself, like the old days ... but what the heck.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Roj
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: March 04 2013 at 03:06 |
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I was there too and it was an absolutely fantastic gig  , glad you enjoyed it too Tony. They are as good a collection of musicians it has been my pleasure to witness live.I think he would have done pretty well financially that night, thank you very much  . The gig had to be moved from a smaller venue such was the demand!It's interesting note SW was not as upset as some people on this thread over this controversy. Of course he said he'd rather people buy it rather than download illegally but better that than for people not to hear it at all. I was shocked that it had leaked as I pre-ordered this weeks back only to see hundreds of reviews on here from those that downloaded the leak. Personally I would never illegally download and would always rather have the physical copy. It was well worth waiting for, a truly superb album. I only hope those who downloaded will now do their bit and re-pay the man and his band by at least ordering something from SW/Burning Shed. |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17966 |
Posted: March 02 2013 at 18:50 |
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Got mine in the mail a few days ago....The album artwork is very cool too.....
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Steven Wilson begging in Facebook
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Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
