"Freedom" thread or something

The Doctor wrote: JJLehto wrote: Or sales tax for that matter? If I owned a small business, and the sales tax went up...why not just raise prices to adjust? Businesses don't pay sales tax.  Not in the sense you mean anyway.  If sales tax is 8%, they collect that 8% on top of the sales price from the consumer, and then act as a trustee of that money until they send it to the state (usually on a monthly or quarterly basis).  Sales tax is also charged only to the end consumer, meaning if I run a retail carpet store for example and purchase carpet for sale from a wholesaler, as a reseller, I will not pay sales tax on the purchases from the carpet wholesaler.  However, if I buy office supplies for use at my business (not for resale), I will pay sales tax on those purchases.  But never on goods for resale.

I've explained taxes in this thread before, but don't feel like going to the trouble to draw charts tonight so I'll try to be brief.

A tax creates a wedge between the price the consumer pays and the price than producer receives. If an 8% sales tax is added onto a good, the price does not rise by 8% for the consumer, nor does the price the producer receives fall by 8% (except in very rare cases of perfect inelesticity.) The tax is shared by the two parties. If the producer doesn't lower prices and consumers have to pay 8% more, he will sell fewer items and lose money. It is in his best interest to drop prices at least somewhat to compensate for the price increase on the consumer.

It doesn't matter whether you levy the tax on the consumer or the producer, the effect is the same. The government cannot control who ultimately pays a tax. In any case, the quantity of the good sold ends up being less because consumers face higher prices and producers receive less money on each sale. This is wasteful and inefficient, and hurts all taxed parties.

The Doctor wrote: Democratically-elected officials that are not in the pocket of the wealthy aristocracy.

JJLehto wrote: The Doctor wrote: Democratically-elected officials that are not in the pocket of the wealthy aristocracy.   Well, good luck with that

I just watched Inside Job and somebody whose name I forget now quipped about the Obama administration that it's a wall street govt.  So I guess the probability that they would NOT be in the pocket of the wealthy is low.   Given the prohibitive cost of election campaigns these days, that probability is pretty low anyway when applied to a successful party/politician.  

"The essence of government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse." - James Madison

JJLehto wrote: The Doctor wrote: Democratically-elected officials that are not in the pocket of the wealthy aristocracy.   Well, good luck with that

I'm not sure why that is any more laughable than the libertarian ideals some people express.  Think about this for a minute, if the wealthy are going to win no matter what (a rather defeatist attitude that I've heard you express) and if libertarianism will actually take power away from that group, do you really think they would ever let such a thing come to pass?  If the wealthy aristocracy are indeed unbeatable, and libertarianism would hurt their interests, then there is zero chance of that system happening. 

thellama73 wrote: The Doctor wrote: JJLehto wrote: The Doctor wrote: Democratically-elected officials that are not in the pocket of the wealthy aristocracy.   Well, good luck with that I'm not sure why that is any more laughable than the libertarian ideals some people express.  Think about this for a minute, if the wealthy are going to win no matter what (a rather defeatist attitude that I've heard you express) and if libertarianism will actually take power away from that group, do you really think they would ever let such a thing come to pass?  If the wealthy aristocracy are indeed unbeatable, and libertarianism would hurt their interests, then there is zero chance of that system happening.  It's an uphill battle, to be sure, but history would seem to indicate that change is at least possible. We won the American revolution, didn't we? Granted, there is always a tendency for power to concentrate, but I don't see that as any reason not to be vigilant against it.

On that we agree.  But again, with what you said in mind, a democratically-elected government that is not in the pockets of the wealthy aristocracy is also possible, if a definite uphill battle. 

But no one has answered my basic question, which is:  what makes libertarianism any more possible than a democratically-elected government without the influence of big money?

Also, a letter to the editor of the New York Times:

It would be a pointless question, had you and MoM not laughed at my "democratically-elected officials who aren't in the pocket of the monied aristocracy".  I admit, it's a pipe dream, but no more so than a libertarian society.  That was my point.   Hence my question. 

As to your first two paragraphs, I agree completely.  There does seem to be quite a lot of that here in the US.  But at least when I lived in Europe, I didn't hear people complain about taxes so much.

And we never answered your question due its pretty obvious insincerity (or at least pointlessness) the net is a crazy ass place.
But really, a larger problem I see is if we did get a limited government, keeping it there. Obviously it was once small and has slowly grown. Well 2 world wars, really helped, then the cold war. I do believe war is pretty much the worst thing for every aspect.

Indeed, we are a confused people it seems. Those were real life examples just from my town, obvious there's thousands and larger examples. We really don't know what we want. Perhaps because there's still, hidden deep, the wants of limited government. We havn't been totally beaten into accepting higher taxes and more government, though every little thing we cry why it's not doing more. Crazy.
I actually have a pretty conservative friend who during the BP oil spill said the government should seize BP, to make sure they will have the $$ to pay for cleanup and penalties. I was so shocked at this didn't even know where to begin! tl;dr we have no f**kin clue what we really want