"Freedom" thread or something

manofmystery wrote: An oldie but a goodie: Outlawing Jobs: The Minimum Wage

Ok, so if we eliminated the minimum wage altogether, everybody could be employed.  But some of those employed could be making pennies an hour. 

What's the point of having a job if you can't feed and house yourself, at a bare minimum, with the money you make from that job?  If I'm going to be hungry and homeless anyway, I'd rather not have a job at all. 

Jobs are simply a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves.  If the means doesn't fulfill the end, then the means is worthless.


Edited by The Doctor - February 16 2013 at 12:57

I loathe that Hayek-Keynes video but not on economical grounds. Horrendous music that makes sense is still horrendous

manofmystery wrote: Eliminating the minimum wage will help lower prices.  Minimum wage laws increase prices while eliminating jobs. It's the worst of both worlds and it also really screws over senior citizens who no longer work but have to help pay for the rising costs of doing business.  The more regulation you peel back the more options will increase and the cheapier products will become. JJLehto wrote: WWII is what brought about the end of the depression and led to near 0 unemployment. Is that what we "need?" Constant WWII levels of spending?? No thanks   This is a myth.  WWII did not end the depression.  This falls under the broken window fallacy.   And I always look for any excuse to post this:

Just the other day you were asking me to thank you for my social security, now you are worried it might affect me to raise the minimum wage. I am skeptical that would hurt the economy.What hurts the economy is the top is rotten and that is what trickles down

timothy leary wrote: manofmystery wrote: Eliminating the minimum wage will help lower prices.  Minimum wage laws increase prices while eliminating jobs. It's the worst of both worlds and it also really screws over senior citizens who no longer work but have to help pay for the rising costs of doing business.  The more regulation you peel back the more options will increase and the cheapier products will become. JJLehto wrote: WWII is what brought about the end of the depression and led to near 0 unemployment. Is that what we "need?" Constant WWII levels of spending?? No thanks   This is a myth.  WWII did not end the depression.  This falls under the broken window fallacy.   And I always look for any excuse to post this: Just the other day you were asking me to thank you for my social security, now you are worried it might affect me to raise the minimum wage. I am skeptical that would hurt the economy.What hurts the economy is the top is rotten and that is what trickles down

And prices do not necessarily have to increase as wages go up.  Let's look at a plant with one CEO and 10 employees.  Each of the employees makes $10 a week, while the CEO makes $900 a week (this is actually less of a difference than actually exists in the real world).  The total cost of all employees is $1000 per week.  Now, a simple way to raise wages without raising prices is as follows.  You can double the bottom 10 employees' wages to $20 a week, and reduce the top wage-earner's wages by a mere 11% to $800 a week and voila, your cost of all employees is still $1000 per week. 

All that is needed is a little less greed at the top.  But I guess in the libertarian value system greed is a thing to be honored and rewarded, not condemned and minimized. 

Sowell, and indeed most conservatives and libertarians confuse the money one makes with the money one earns.  Nor do I believe that the market efficiently or fairly distributes income at the very top or the very bottom. 

And the top in this country is no longer the government.  Reagan and his followers ceded control of our government over from the democratically-elected to the monied aristocracy.  They are in control now. 


Edited by The Doctor - February 16 2013 at 16:24

I really am not sold that minimum wage will increase unemployment, at least not in a great number assuming the wage rate isn't like $15 an hour, but I always wondered about inflation.
If simply prices would be raised, has there ever been research done on it?

Or sales tax for that matter? If I owned a small business, and the sales tax went up...why not just raise prices to adjust?

Anywho, the real thing about minimum wage is...who does it affect?
I used to subscribe to the classic liberal theory, eliminating it will cause mass inhumane poverty.
But I needa see who exactly is on minimum wage and how long. I think maybe it's more a mental image than reality. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine millions living their lives on minimum wage.

Also even if you work a low paying job, let's say $8 an hour, min wage has 0 impact on you. I used to think all employers would start dropping wages through the floor, but if they already pay above minimum why would they drop it to $1 an hour?
Not that I support eliminating it, yet, but seems kinda like more government showmanship! It affects a small number, we need to get the large amount of low paid workers all improved, not just at the line.


Edited by JJLehto - February 16 2013 at 17:00

Anyone who thinks the rotteness starts with the government as the top is dreaming. As the doc said it is the aristocrats at the top who control the pursestrings. Rockerfeller, Rothschilds and Morgans. Follow the money to find the rot. I challenge anyone to prove with facts that it is not the aristocrats in charge.

JJLehto wrote: And this is why I just bow out of debate, eventually...it all becomes rehash. Doc used those exact words weeks ago. No one will make any ground if the other side is not willing, simply. I already asked told Doc the sentiment is just masked anger/envy....no matter how you feel all money made is earned, by its nature. Just an attempt to justify taking from some, (after all they didnt really earn it!). I caught you in a mental hole also Doc, when you said you honestly don't want much money, you just don't want to work that hard for material gain, and would rather enjoy your life as is. This is accepting that all $ requires work. Even if its a CEO that uses cut throat, stab in the back ways and sleaze and ass kissing it IS work after all.

I thought that sounded familiar when I said it.  Now I know why. 

I never said that work was not required to make money.  I have said that luck and more importantly exploitation can be involved as well, although I will also concede that it takes work to exploit people. 

JJLehto wrote: Or sales tax for that matter? If I owned a small business, and the sales tax went up...why not just raise prices to adjust?

Businesses don't pay sales tax.  Not in the sense you mean anyway.  If sales tax is 8%, they collect that 8% on top of the sales price from the consumer, and then act as a trustee of that money until they send it to the state (usually on a monthly or quarterly basis).  Sales tax is also charged only to the end consumer, meaning if I run a retail carpet store for example and purchase carpet for sale from a wholesaler, as a reseller, I will not pay sales tax on the purchases from the carpet wholesaler.  However, if I buy office supplies for use at my business (not for resale), I will pay sales tax on those purchases.  But never on goods for resale. 

Ah see that's what I mean. Not really exploitation, though it could be deemed unfair.
You can fit exploiting into anything then.
How about 10 times the pay? Anyone would accept that but why is not still? A CEO sits in a chair and we bust our asses? Why shouldn't everything be collectively run by the employees?
I've asked before, who decided? On this thread, you do but in real life....who would make all these decisions???