"Freedom" thread or something

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 dtguitarfan wrote:

 Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Chester & Geoff: on the topic of the government as "us" - 

Power corrupts.

Money corrupts.

Our government has both.

How can we expect an institution with these corrupting influences to represent the people accurately.  Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently.  And I agree with you on that point.  If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption?

We have a government that was designed with checks and balances.  You're right - power and money corrupt, and I'm not so naive to think that only wonderful things are going on in the government.  But I'm also not going to go through life being cynical and feeling miserable because of it.  And I think that our government, with its system of checks and balances, has more of a chance of being less corrupt than a corporation that doesn't have checks and balances. 

This is echoing many other comments that have been sprinkled liberally throughout this thread but it bears repeating: the problem with checks and balances is that the checks and balances of government are contained within government itself; a corrupt institution isn't going to regulate itself very well.  The most important check on the government is that of the people, and our right to vote for who will govern us, but the power of leaders to deceive people is astounding, and especially in a society where people are frequently receiving benefits and entitlements from the government, they can easily become dependent and be deceived by the government.

Now I'm not saying that these principles cannot be applied to business as well; to a large degree they can.  I'm not a laissez faire libertarian type (I visit this thread because I find it interesting, and also because I'm very libertarian on social issues).  What I'm saying is that, when you put your faith in government, it's always going to fail you because the system is so flawed, and even with checks and balances the institution is criminal and corrupt.  As Rob has said, if you judge the government the way you would judge a private business you would see that it has failed the criteria that you would impose on businesses to determine their honesty.  There's bribery, deception (this applies to liberals and conservatives; read Where Men Win Glory if you want to hear how the US military under the Bush administration deceived the public about Pat Tillman's death), an atrocious lack of accountability (Fast and Furious, Bengazi), and a blame-shifting aversion to compromise.  

 dtguitarfan wrote:

 thellama73 wrote:

It's very simple, Rob. He and the and the people who think like him are simply better than the rest of us. Smarter, wiser, more competent in every way. It is for us, the unwashed masses, to bow down to their superior managerial and legislative skills to tell us poor simpletons how to live, because we cannot do so for ourselves, being the stupid, violent and greedy wretches that we are. Bearing all that in mind, I see no conflict between the two statements.

You know, you can mock.  But from personal experience - before I began to take a more liberal viewpoint, I was a miserable, fearful, cynical b*****d.  I hated people, I was angry all the time, and if you crossed me you'd better be sure I would try to get you back if I could get away with it.  Now, I'm not going to say this is all because of "going liberal" - on the contrary, you know I have certain beliefs, and thus would credit God with this.  But when I began to adopt a more liberal viewpoint, my attitude began to change.  It was liberalism combined with viewpoints on my own religion - rather than looking around at people and being angry at how evil they all are, I realized I'm a b*****d myself, and thus have no right to be angry at anyone.  But I also believe in grace.  And if I am to accept grace in my life, I have to extend it to others.  You can't possibly receive grace if you aren't willing to extend the same measure of it to others.  And when I began to feel the affects of grace, both from truly receiving it and from extending it to others, it began to change the way I treated people.  I rejected fear and anger and hate, and replaced them with faith and hope and love.  So laugh all you want, but becoming more liberal/progressive/whatever you want to call it is making me a happier, more generous, more grace-extending, more loving person.

You know I'm glad concerning your personal transformation; I think you've shared at least bits of the story at various times on the site; and yes, you're much better off a gracious and loving liberal than a hateful and cynical person in any other political persuasion (and you can apply that principle to any position you take!)  As someone with very different political opinions from you but a similar disavowal of hate and fear, I think both of our political stances are consistent with Christian love.  I just differ with you somewhat on electing to trust the government instead of fearing them.  Personally, I don't trust the government, but I don't fear them either, because I know that God is in control and that Christ is coming back to overthrow all human civic powers!

But I am happy that you rediscovered the church and overcame your hate; we can agree on that, even if we disagree on politics 