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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 19:03 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 19:28 |
On guns: I have one because it was handed down to me and I wanted to learn to use it for protection. I have never ever even taken it out of the drawer but I keep right there just in case. Of course, no children ever enter my house thus I don't have it locked away. I only defend the right of people to have guns out of the sane idea that they can be of help (so many people would love to have one in my country of origin where they are very very restricted) and out of the dislike for government or anybody regulating what I can do to protect my own.
On Dtguitarfan: nothing.
On TheDoc: your points are sensible and if I prefer limited government is because I think it is much easier to abuse power when there are no consequences and when this power is supposedly legally and legitimately yours to abuse. But yes, people not in government can be just as abusive and I don't like that either. And as I have said, just as there are disgusting pigs in the private sector there are good people in the public one. Good and bad people can be found everywhere.
On healthcare: I consider it almost an essential. If a person makes enough money to get by but not enough to pay for health insurance or if this person has a preexisting condition, the only choice left, bar death or migration, is to find a job that offers this benefit and then this person basically is tied to this employer forever, for his freedom to say "your working conditions are miserable, I quit" has been almost totally reduced to a matter of choosing between life and death. If there is a way to improve the system so that the market finds a solution, I'll welcome it, but I'd love to see it as more than a hypothetical idea based on principles and silogisms. Until then, I could tolerate even the great Satan of all free market enthusiasts: universal health care.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:10 |
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
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Consuming more than their "fair share" of resources?
Our government is the biggest tumor we have then.
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I know you libertarian types like to make the government out to be some separate entity, completely distinct from the people it represents, but that is not so. The government is simply an extension of the public and the public will. Our government is "us". And therefore, it is we who are consuming those resources (whether you personally like the way they are consumed or not).
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We ("the people") are not consuming most of those resources. We are sending them to corporations with the CEOs you heavily despise, who get rich off government contracts and sometimes overcharge on their invoices.
I find it amusing how much faith you have in an entity that is responsible for keeping the people you hate so much "in charge."
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I have faith in the concept of government, not necessarily in our government right now as it stands. I believe that government can be used as a force for good. I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will act in ways that are decent, rational and fair. People have to be forced to act that way. Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime? Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left. Our government is not the greatest as it is currently, but some government is necessary.
| Corporations can be a force for good. Yet you demonize them and their leaders.
I don't have faith in government. Why is that? Because government is made up of those same people, whom you do not believe, "when left to their own devices, will act in ways that decent, rational, and fair."
Government is a corporation (that is, a body of people).
dtguitarfan wrote:
"Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by
prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."-
William E. Gladstone
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The Doctor wrote:
I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will
act in ways that are decent, rational and fair. People have to be
forced to act that way.
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Ah.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:16 |
The Doctor wrote:
Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime? Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left.
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Quick question here: if murder were legalized tomorrow, how many people do you reckon you'd kill, Doc?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:18 |
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17144
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:22 |
The Doctor wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime? Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left.
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Quick question here: if murder were legalized tomorrow, how many people do you reckon you'd kill, Doc?
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I'd have to put together a list.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:27 |
Have to give Doc credit on wit today!
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:35 |
My point is that the thing that offends me most about liberalism (or progressivism, or whatever the kids are calling it these days) is its advocates always seem to exclude themselves from their complaints about the race to which they belong. The government must take care of those poor, deluded, ignorant hillbilly redneck fools who can't behave properly by telling them what to eat, what to drink, what to smoke, how to save for their retirement, what kind of car to drive, what kind of lightbulb to use, and so on and so on. But of course I don't need to be told those things. I'm enlightened. I'm educated. I'm progressive. I can run my own life.
I never hear anyone say "the government needs to protect me from myself!" Only "the government needs to protect other people from themselves!"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:36 |
I would also give Doc credit for evading llama's posts this evening. So to ask again:
What is the fair share?
Would you kill anyone if murder were made legal?
Edited by Epignosis - January 22 2013 at 20:37
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:48 |
On a side issue:
Many of you know I delivered our third child at home. It was a successful delivery and one of the highlights of my life.
No one we have contacted before this week had any idea how to issue a birth certificate to a child born at home. No one.
My wife finally was able to contact someone who could get us proper forms. We do not have the BC yet, but we are hoping. It should not have taken this long. Our son will be a year old come this May, and I have to have his SS card by April so I can file taxes!
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:54 |
Why do we need a certificate to prove we were born anyway? Isn't our presence on the planet proof enough of that?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 20:57 |
thellama73 wrote:
Why do we need a certificate to prove we were born anyway? Isn't our presence on the planet proof enough of that?
| So he can become President and give out Ephraimphones.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Online
Points: 17144
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 21:00 |
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Why do we need a certificate to prove we were born anyway? Isn't our presence on the planet proof enough of that?
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So he can become President and give out Ephraimphones.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 22:03 |
The Doctor wrote:
Our government is "us". |
The Doctor wrote:
I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will
act in ways that are decent, rational and fair. People have to be
forced to act that way. |
May replace my signature with this.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 22:14 |
As you do not actually believe those statements why would you use it as your signature, unless you think that will in some way make me look bad. Not sure how it does, but that is the only reason I can guess for you wanting to use that as your signature. I should rephrase that last statement though and partially answer Logan's question. "I do not believe that a good percentage of people will act in ways that are decent...." And yes, Logan, but I'm sorry, I've known a lot of liberals and I've known a lot of conservatives, or had dealings with a lot of both ilk. For decency, honesty, compassion, and just all around nice behavior, I do think liberals are more likely to be such than conservatives. Rob's desire to use my statements to what I can only surmise is to try to make me look bad only further proves that to me.
A few of you are apparently unable to have a disagreement without resorting to being patronizing, belittling or downright insulting. Learn to debate with mutual respect or get bent.
Edited by The Doctor - January 22 2013 at 22:22
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 22:24 |
The Doctor wrote:
As you do not actually believe those statements why would you use it as your signature, unless you think that will in some way make me look bad. Not sure how it does, but that is the only reason I can guess for you wanting to use that as your signature. I should rephrase that last statement though and partially answer Logan's question. "I do not believe that a good percentage of people will act in ways that are decent...." And yes, Logan, but I'm sorry, I've known a lot of liberals and I've known a lot of conservatives, or had dealings with a lot of both ilk. For decency, honesty, compassion, and just all around nice behavior, I do think liberals are more likely to be such than conservatives. Rob's desire to use my statements to what I can only surmise is to try to make me look bad only further proves that to me.
| You think I would replace my ad for your inconsistencies? To quote Mrs. Krabappel: "Ha!"
The Doctor wrote:
Our government is "us". |
The Doctor wrote:
I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will
act in ways that are decent, rational and fair. People have to be
forced to act that way. |
Can you reconcile those statements?
Edited by Epignosis - January 22 2013 at 22:25
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 22:42 |
Epignosis wrote:
Can you reconcile those statements?
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It's very simple, Rob. He and the and the people who think like him are simply better than the rest of us. Smarter, wiser, more competent in every way. It is for us, the unwashed masses, to bow down to their superior managerial and legislative skills to tell us poor simpletons how to live, because we cannot do so for ourselves, being the stupid, violent and greedy wretches that we are. Bearing all that in mind, I see no conflict between the two statements.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 23:38 |
I will admit, I am a little angry, and disturbed, that "science" has become the religion for the more government crowd. Like how I used religion for extra trolling? I know we discussed this before but while science is beautiful and helpful, it has become a cult for many of the left, as "the rich" have become a cult for the right IMO. Thus, any disagreement makes you anti scientific, dumb, neanderthals.
I was shocked that in "We" written in 1921 even back then science was used as the justification to run society...and it has been used so many times before, like for fascism and eugenics.
I think government and business are very similar, and I'll be honest...between my personal experience and others, seems like managers are generally inefficient, (useless at best) and get drunk with "power" and more concerned with being a boss than actually just managing. I've had some good ones, but generally not. And many of these people ARE smart, experienced and trained. Yet look. Also, the whole chain of command hierarchy becomes such a mess. We've all done menial jobs I assume, so many times us "low people" did our jobs fine, and at best all bosses did was get in the way. We'd figure stuff out, do it efficiently, and if a manager was right in telling us something it still was a waste by having to go through them...for what we figured out anyway.
So a little irony this is what some may want done to the nation. Pretty much having it run like a business! Just its government instead
Edited by JJLehto - January 22 2013 at 23:40
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 23:39 |
Chester & Geoff: on the topic of the government as "us" -
Power corrupts.
Money corrupts.
Our government has both.
How can we expect an institution with these corrupting influences to represent the people accurately. Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently. And I agree with you on that point. If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption?
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 23:45 |
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently. And I agree with you on that point. If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption?
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100% right. I think it's the "internet debate" of it all. I used to stay so focused on theory, which I admit in theory leftism even socialism can make sense, but eventually I accepted reality. Which is the theory of "good government" doesn't work, because its just an extension of us, as Doc pointed out. IMO kinda like magnifying our faults, and giving it legal authority to rule our lives. Edit: Crazy Rob! Semi related...my uncle may or may not be a US citizen. He's 67 and we still don't know. He was born in Germany and moved to the US when 2, he and his parents were here legally, "legal aliens" but never became citizens. He was told by someone that he would become an automatic citizen since he enlisted in the army, but never got anything at all, ever, about it. Once contacted the military about it and they shooed him off the phone! Government efficiency right there.
Edited by JJLehto - January 22 2013 at 23:49
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