"Freedom" thread or something

On guns: I have one because it was handed down to me and I wanted to learn to use it for protection. I have never ever even taken it out of the drawer but I keep right there just in case. Of course, no children ever enter my house thus I don't have it locked away. I only defend the right of people to have guns out of the sane idea that they can be of help (so many people would love to have one in my country of origin where they are very very restricted) and out of the dislike for government or anybody regulating what I can do to protect my own.

On Dtguitarfan: nothing.

On TheDoc: your points are sensible and if I prefer limited government is because I think it is much easier to abuse power when there are no consequences and when this power is supposedly legally and legitimately yours to abuse. But yes, people not in government can be just as abusive and I don't like that either. And as I have said, just as there are disgusting pigs in the private sector there are good people in the public one. Good and bad people can be found everywhere.

On healthcare: I consider it almost an essential. If a person makes enough money to get by but not enough to pay for health insurance or if this person has a preexisting condition, the only choice left, bar death or migration, is to find a job that offers this benefit and then this person basically is tied to this employer forever, for his freedom to say "your working conditions are miserable, I quit" has been almost totally reduced to a matter of choosing between life and death. If there is a way to improve the system so that the market finds a solution, I'll welcome it, but I'd love to see it as more than a hypothetical idea based on principles and silogisms. Until then, I could tolerate even the great Satan of all free market enthusiasts: universal health care.

The Doctor wrote: Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime?  Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left.

Quick question here: if murder were legalized tomorrow, how many people do you reckon you'd kill, Doc?

The Doctor wrote: thellama73 wrote: The Doctor wrote: Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime?  Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left. Quick question here: if murder were legalized tomorrow, how many people do you reckon you'd kill, Doc? I'd have to put together a list.

My point is that the thing that offends me most about liberalism (or progressivism, or whatever the kids are calling it these days) is its advocates always seem to exclude themselves from their complaints about the race to which they belong. The government must take care of those poor, deluded, ignorant hillbilly redneck fools who can't behave properly by telling them what to eat, what to drink, what to smoke, how to save for their retirement, what kind of car to drive, what kind of lightbulb to use, and so on and so on. But of course I don't need to be told those things. I'm enlightened. I'm educated. I'm progressive. I can run my own life.

I never hear anyone say "the government needs to protect me from myself!" Only "the government needs to protect other people from themselves!"

On a side issue:

Many of you know I delivered our third child at home.  It was a successful delivery and one of the highlights of my life.

No one we have contacted before this week had any idea how to issue a birth certificate to a child born at home.  No one.

My wife finally was able to contact someone who could get us proper forms.  We do not have the BC yet,  but we are hoping.  It should not have taken this long.  Our son will be a year old come this May, and I have to have his SS card by April so I can file taxes!

thellama73 wrote: Why do we need a certificate to prove we were born anyway? Isn't our presence on the planet proof enough of that?

So he can become President and give out Ephraimphones.

The Doctor wrote: Our government is "us".

The Doctor wrote: I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will act in ways that are decent, rational and fair.  People have to be forced to act that way.

May replace my signature with this.

The Doctor wrote: As you do not actually believe those statements why would you use it as your signature, unless you think that will in some way make me look bad.  Not sure how it does, but that is the only reason I can guess for you wanting to use that as your signature.  I should rephrase that last statement though and partially answer Logan's question.  "I do not believe that a good percentage of people will act in ways that are decent...."   And yes, Logan, but I'm sorry, I've known a lot of liberals and I've known a lot of conservatives, or had dealings with a lot of both ilk.  For decency, honesty, compassion, and just all around nice behavior, I do think liberals are more likely to be such than conservatives.  Rob's desire to use my statements to what I can only surmise is to try to make me look bad only further proves that to me.

You think I would replace my ad for your inconsistencies?  To quote Mrs. Krabappel:  "Ha!"

The Doctor wrote: Our government is "us".

The Doctor wrote: I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will act in ways that are decent, rational and fair.  People have to be forced to act that way.

Can you reconcile those statements?





Edited by Epignosis - January 22 2013 at 22:25

I will admit, I am a little angry, and disturbed, that "science" has become the religion for the more government crowd.
Like how I used religion for extra trolling?
I know we discussed this before but while science is beautiful and helpful, it has become a cult for many of the left, as "the rich" have become a cult for the right IMO. Thus, any disagreement makes you anti scientific, dumb, neanderthals.

I was shocked that in "We" written in 1921 even back then science was used as the justification to run society...and it has been used so many times before, like for fascism and eugenics.

I think government and business are very similar, and I'll be honest...between my personal experience and others, seems like managers are generally inefficient, (useless at best) and get drunk with "power" and more concerned with being a boss than actually just managing. I've had some good ones, but generally not. And many of these people ARE smart, experienced and trained. Yet look. Also, the whole chain of command hierarchy becomes such a mess.
We've all done menial jobs I assume, so many times us "low people" did our jobs fine, and at best all bosses did was get in the way.  We'd figure stuff out, do it efficiently, and if a manager was right in telling us something it still was a waste by having to go through them...for what we figured out anyway.

So a little irony this is what some may want done to the nation. Pretty much having it run like a business! Just its government instead


Edited by JJLehto - January 22 2013 at 23:40

Ambient Hurricanes wrote:   Even after your clarification, Chester, you're still saying that "a good percentage" of people are not going to act decently.  And I agree with you on that point.  If much of the general public is made up of indecent people, how much more will the US government, possibly the most powerful institution in the world which handles possibly more money than any institution in the world (I think) be subject to corruption?

100% right.
I think it's the "internet debate" of it all. I used to stay so focused on theory, which I admit in theory leftism even socialism can make sense, but eventually I accepted reality.
Which is the theory of "good government" doesn't work, because its just an extension of us, as Doc pointed out.
IMO kinda like magnifying our faults, and giving it legal authority to rule our lives.


Edit: Crazy Rob!
Semi related...my uncle may or may not be a US citizen. He's 67 and we still don't know.
He was born in Germany and moved to the US when 2, he and his parents were here legally, "legal aliens" but never became citizens. He was told by someone that he would become an automatic citizen since he enlisted in the army, but never got anything at all, ever, about it.
Once contacted the military about it and they shooed him off the phone! Government efficiency right there.


Edited by JJLehto - January 22 2013 at 23:49