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The Doctor View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 11:44
Government is people and power concentrates to some degree in government and of course that power must be balanced against private power or you end up with an authoritarian tyrannical government.  However, corporate CEOs, employers, landlords, bankers and so on are also people.  I would rather place my trust in a government which is at least in theory representative of all the people and in our case elected by the people, rather than in the aforementioned employers, landlords, etc who have no obligations to the public at large and whose sole motivation is the maximization of his/her own well being at the expense of everyone else. 
 
I would actually disagree with DTs quote about liberalism being trust in the people.  For me, that is far from the truth.  I do not trust people to act in the best interests of everyone.  And while government is made up of people, those people, in our case anyway, do have some limitations on their actions.  Private citizens (without government intervention) have no such limitations. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 11:52

I had to step away from the comp...damn having to do my job. However in a bit I will get back to you doc and your second point ties into my answer to your first question 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 12:31
I hate when I don't get the chance to check in here for a few days.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 12:43
OK Doc
So why do I prefer a libertatrian state to a socialist one (in response to our current corporatist state)?
Simple: control of our life.
Freedom may not be an answer you want to hear, lets call it decentralizing of power, but its all the same. I want to have as much say of my life as I can. It goes beyond econ as well...But since that's the major issue.
You admit while we'd be putting greedy people in power you prefer it over bankers and CEOs having unlimited power.
 
I see it as flipped. I don't want to legalize their power over me, and give them to tools to make it easier.
Banks for example, you can make a case that the Federal Reserve is pretty much a cartel of large banks, and a way to let them be irresponsible and be bailed out cosntantly. This can be said for many laws as well. With as little government as possible, they have to behave responsibly, or if not...they fail. Opposed to now where they can behave badly AND continue to succeed.
With a free market we DO have some say. It may look like unlimtied power because there is less regulating of them but really their power is limited. I can do my business with whoever I want. Businesses become huge by giving us the best prices/appealing to us. If not, well why would anyone give em money? If a monopoly forms, (as long as no laws prevent competition) another can start up locally and we can support that one. You get it, no need to continute.
 
With government control, you have no choice. There is one post office, one health insurance, one whatever product.
If you are OK with this, than fine. I just prefer competition. I like choice, and a single provider has no incentive to improve.
 
 
Also I'd need to know how progressive a tax system you prefer. I know the super rich are the evil ones, but really a big state system would require heavy burdens on all of us. Look at Sweden. Now sure, there are things you may like about it, but it does basically make you a serf to the state. With such heavy tax burdens, including on spending, it'd be very difficult to save, thus you are reliant entirely on SS.  Everyone and everything would become dependent on the state, and that's not something I'm comfortable with. I'd rather take the greedy, crazy market where at least I can do what I want with my money and my life. If we pay taxes, just to get it back...well I'd rather be able to keep more of my $ and use it how I want best.
 
 
That was rambling, but I wanted to give you more than "choice" "freedom" and all those buzzwords.
As for would it be easier to transition to limited gov over socialism. IDK, not sure if it matters. It's what I think is better. If you want an answer, I'd say it seems probably easier to transition to a socialist state, but being easier doesn't mean anything. It's about what you think is right.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 12:57
Thanks Brian.  Appreciate your in depth response to just throwing out some buzzwords.  I understand some of what you're saying.  Certainly there are ways in which I do not want my freedom curtailed, although, in most instances I would say economics plays a larger role in curtailing my freedoms than government.  Yes, I know that's just a fact of life, I and most others are never going to have the money to do everything we want. 
 
But let's talk about competition and government regulations for a bit and how more of the first and less of the latter provides more choice for consumers.  I'm going to hit on a topic here which is something I'm very familiar with.  Landlord/tenant laws are very lax here in Texas and pretty much a landlord can put in a contract whatever he feels like putting in it.  The only real regulations have to do somewhat with health and safety and the eviction process.  Everything else is up to the landlord and haha the tenant to "negotiate".  There are lots of different landlords.  In fact, the landlords here in Texas have their own private group, which pretty much sets industry-wide standards by which landlords do business.  It basically comes down to being a cartel which while there may be multiple sellers of the good, they all sell the good under the exact same terms.  Not much choice for the consumer here in spite of a lack of government regulation.  How do you keep such cartels from forming?  New entrants?  Laws are not the only entry barrier to competitors.  Cost and economics is also a huge entry barrier into a lot of industries, and once a cartel forms they can throw up their own entry barriers.  They don't need no stinking government to do it for them.   
 
EDIT:  As to your questions about the progressive tax system, I will think about that one over lunch and answer shortly.


Edited by The Doctor - January 22 2013 at 13:04
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 13:31
Thanks, I am curious to know what is your ideal system. Doc world...you can set it up how you want. Quite interested in what you'd like to have.
 
 
BTW I do get the anger, no doubt huge influences on me where when I was younger. I remember the Enron Scandal, and it really upset me. And as I got older...I've had more than enough examples of companies screwing me and others over. sh*tty college apartments that were way over priced and undermanaged, becuase they could.
 
 
You have a good point there, and hey...it aint perfect. Id say there is always some role for government to at least try and stop such things from happening. And also remember that there are rules that prevent competition outright, like with healthcare and energy. Thus often leaving a small town with one power company who can srew you with rates...
Good ol Middletown, PA. A friend of mine was on the verge of a call to arms against the town board over the issue!
 
 
On the flip side....here in NJ the property taxes are extrmely high, and it really chokes alot of middle classes homes.
Auto insurance is also crazy high, and like most states everyone needs to have it. There is no incentive to lower it, or be fair. Now of course you can still leave and go to a new company but imagine if you could potentially leave all together?
We are a heavily regulated state, thus its harder to do busienss and our unemployment rate is still qutie high (over 9% I think).
 
Point here is, nothing is perfect. And while its human nature to want and right the wrongs, fix the problems, etc....we are human. We can't try and run society to our liking.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 14:02
We can try.  No we won't be able to run society to our liking, but we can still try and we can still push our polticians to respond to some of our demands for a better society. 
 
Let's see as for the tax system, let's deal with social security first.  I agree with the flat rate; however, I think the first 30,000 someone makes should be completely tax free (including payroll taxes).  On the other hand, the cap on Social Security should be eliminated.  Heck, most people think of SS as an entitlement anyway.  Might as well make it one. 
 
Capital gains should be taxed at the same marginal rates as regular income.  Why should people get a break for making money by not working? 
 
I would eliminate all deductions save a 30K standard deduction which everyone gets (this would also do away with the AMT which conservatives hate).  I would probably make an allowance for catastrophic events which could be deducted, e.g. hospital bill paid from uninsured cancer treatment.  I would say the 70's would provide a good source of tax rates with a top marginal rate of about 70%. 
 
I would also impose a wealth tax.  Not on mom and dad's retirement savings or anything up to a few million dollars.  But when people start hoarding wealth and cash, they need to be smacked for it.  Not sure about minimum's or rates though, as I haven't thought that one completely through.
 
All foreign income would be taxed at the following rate (Calculated US marginal income tax - actual income taxes paid to a foreign state).  Actually, this is pretty close to the law now for individuals, the same would be applied to companies. 
 
A universal health care tax of whatever percentage is necessary (keeping in mind the 30K deduction) and no cap on earnings.
 
Now on the spending side, universal health care for all, social security obviously, a strong social safety net which would include extended unemployment, and welfare and disability payments for those who needed them. 
 
I would eliminate foreign aid, with the exception of humanitarian aid.  I have no problem giving other countries food and medicine.  I do have a problem with arming them and helping them kill each other.
 
I think this is one we can probably all agree on: stop the whole US as world police thing.  We can't afford it and it just serves to piss off other countries. 
 
Oh, no sales tax.  At all, at any level.  They are regressive and reduce consumption which is necessary for a vibrant economy.  I do not believe in property taxes either for a primary residence within a certain price range.  Business property and second homes, etc. could still be taxed.  Also, the 100-room mansion could be taxed even if a primary residence.  Whew!
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 16:20
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Government is people and power concentrates to some degree in government and of course that power must be balanced against private power or you end up with an authoritarian tyrannical government.  However, corporate CEOs, employers, landlords, bankers and so on are also people.  I would rather place my trust in a government which is at least in theory representative of all the people and in our case elected by the people, rather than in the aforementioned employers, landlords, etc who have no obligations to the public at large and whose sole motivation is the maximization of his/her own well being at the expense of everyone else. 
 
I would actually disagree with DTs quote about liberalism being trust in the people.  For me, that is far from the truth.  I do not trust people to act in the best interests of everyone.  And while government is made up of people, those people, in our case anyway, do have some limitations on their actions.  Private citizens (without government intervention) have no such limitations. 

Actually, I agree 100% with the idea that a government elected through Democratic means is more trustworthy than the greed of individuals.  Remember, it is trust tempered by prudence.  I read a couple fascinating articles recently by David Korten.  The first poses the question: why do we still have a failing economic model when Nature itself models many successful economic systems?
http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/what-would-nature-do/inside-the-down-to-earth-economy?utm_source=january13yn&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=titleDownToEarthEconomy

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources.  Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that?  Cancer.  Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it.  But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.

The other article is equally fascinating, and proposes that our societal understanding of the earth's origin story shapes our economic ideas:
http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/religion-science-and-spirit-a-sacred-story-for-our-time

That's a long one, and will hurt your brain, but it's worth it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 16:43

[QUOTE = dtguitarfan]

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
 
[/QUOTE]
 
All I can say to that is Clap


Edited by The Doctor - January 22 2013 at 16:44
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 17:39
Re: guns.

I am perhaps unusual in that I don't share the conservative love of guns. I don't like shooting them or being around them, and I find them somewhat scary. Of course I think the right to own them is very important, and I oppose all gun control legislation, but it's similar to marijuana in that I just can't get emotionally worked up about the issue the way so many do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 17:46
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Re: guns.

I am perhaps unusual in that I don't share the conservative love of guns. I don't like shooting them or being around them, and I find them somewhat scary. Of course I think the right to own them is very important, and I oppose all gun control legislation, but it's similar to marijuana in that I just can't get emotionally worked up about the issue the way so many do.


And it is refreshing to see!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:04
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
 
 
Consuming more than their "fair share" of resources?

Our government is the biggest tumor we have then.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:08
I wish, I wish someone could explain to me exactly what "fair share" means and how much it is in dollars.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:27
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
 
 
Consuming more than their "fair share" of resources?

Our government is the biggest tumor we have then.



I know you libertarian types like to make the government out to be some separate entity, completely distinct from the people it represents, but that is not so.  The government is simply an extension of the public and the public will.  Our government is "us".  And therefore, it is we who are consuming those resources (whether you personally like the way they are consumed or not). 

Oh and Logan, it is $43.62 1/2. Wink

Re: guns.  I still don't see why anyone should want or need a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, unless someone is extremely paranoid, in which case they need to be locked away not allowed to have weapons, or they are planning to commit a huge number of killings in a very short period of time, in which case the same applies. 


Edited by The Doctor - January 22 2013 at 18:29
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:38
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
 
 
Consuming more than their "fair share" of resources?

Our government is the biggest tumor we have then.



I know you libertarian types like to make the government out to be some separate entity, completely distinct from the people it represents, but that is not so.  The government is simply an extension of the public and the public will.  Our government is "us".  And therefore, it is we who are consuming those resources (whether you personally like the way they are consumed or not). 



We ("the people") are not consuming most of those resources.  We are sending them to corporations with the CEOs you heavily despise, who get rich off government contracts and sometimes overcharge on their invoices.

I find it amusing how
much faith you have in an entity that is responsible for keeping the people you hate so much "in charge."


Edited by Epignosis - January 22 2013 at 18:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:38
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Re: guns.

I am perhaps unusual in that I don't share the conservative love of guns. I don't like shooting them or being around them, and I find them somewhat scary. Of course I think the right to own them is very important, and I oppose all gun control legislation, but it's similar to marijuana in that I just can't get emotionally worked up about the issue the way so many do.
Is it true that conseratives love guns? I have to say I've not seen that presented here, the predominant view seems to be one of protecting the right of ownership and opposing any form of control or regulation while not actually loving guns, or wanting to own one, just as you have said. A few people have said they own a gun for whatever reason (I think they all said 'for protection' but I may be wrong and it would take forever to backtrack through all the posts there has ever been on this subject to check), but none that I recall have ever professed a love or even liking of them.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:43
People here, and by here I mean the US, not Prog Archives, love their guns.  I think its some sort of macho thing, and/or compensation for not having other large equipment.  Anyway, there was a picture floating around Facebook of some moron in a JC Penney with an automatic weapon strapped to his back.  What is he compensating for I wonder?  Confused

Either way, I don't want to live in the kind of society where any idiot can strap an automatic weapon to his back and just wander around town with it.  I mean, Jesus. 


Edited by The Doctor - January 22 2013 at 18:44
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:45
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:


Re: guns.  I still don't see why anyone should want or need a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, unless someone is extremely paranoid, in which case they need to be locked away not allowed to have weapons, or they are planning to commit a huge number of killings in a very short period of time, in which case the same applies. 


I don't see why anyone should want or need a CD by the Eagles, but thankfully property rights are not about what telling people should need and want.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:47
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:


Re: guns.  I still don't see why anyone should want or need a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, unless someone is extremely paranoid, in which case they need to be locked away not allowed to have weapons, or they are planning to commit a huge number of killings in a very short period of time, in which case the same applies. 


I don't see why anyone should want or need a CD by the Eagles, but thankfully property rights are not about what telling people should need and want.


I can't kill scores of people with an Eagles' CD.  Now had you said Justin Bieber, your case might have been stronger.  Wink
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2013 at 18:55
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

So, if you compare the economy to the human body, you realize that we NEED antibodies, and one of the functions of antibodies is to make sure cells don't start consuming more than their fair share of resources. Because what do you call it when a group of cells starts doing that? Cancer. Our economy has cancer, and some people are saying we need the cancer, while others are saying it would be unjust for the antibodies to do anything about it. But if the body dies, that is a far greater injustice than this fantasy based injustice, and what's more the cancer cells will die too.
 
 
Consuming more than their "fair share" of resources?

Our government is the biggest tumor we have then.



I know you libertarian types like to make the government out to be some separate entity, completely distinct from the people it represents, but that is not so.  The government is simply an extension of the public and the public will.  Our government is "us".  And therefore, it is we who are consuming those resources (whether you personally like the way they are consumed or not). 



We ("the people") are not consuming most of those resources.  We are sending them to corporations with the CEOs you heavily despise, who get rich off government contracts and sometimes overcharge on their invoices.

I find it amusing how
much faith you have in an entity that is responsible for keeping the people you hate so much "in charge."


I have faith in the concept of government, not necessarily in our government right now as it stands.  I believe that government can be used as a force for good.  I also do not believe that people, when left to their own devices, will act in ways that are decent, rational and fair.  People have to be forced to act that way.  Why do we have laws against murder and punishments for the crime?  Because, if we didn't, people would be killing each other right and left.  Our government is not the greatest as it is currently, but some government is necessary.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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