"Freedom" thread or something

dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: TheDoc: these groups are usually labeled as the "right": neo cons, neo nazis, fascists, conservatives, libertarians, anarchocapitalists, religious groups, etc etc. I would like Geoff to explain me what is common among all these groups tha make them uniquevocally "the right". That would take a while to explain.  However, this sums it up quite nicely, and I find it resonates with where I used to be as well as where I am now: "Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."- William E. Gladstone Though I don't agree with it, TheDoc actually gave me an answer. Quotes and links don't count as answers Geoff. Haha, ok - see, before I had laid out some things I felt were problems, and then was accused of making baseless accusations.  Then I moved on to trying to support my arguments with links, and I was told "I never read any of your links."  Now I'm using elegant quotes that I feel sum up my feelings somewhat nicely in a short little sentence, and I'm being told "that doesn't count."  I guess my opinion just doesn't count.... But that's ok, because it's part of the majority, which does.

Whenever you can't answer something, you bring out the "we are the majority" no argument. Do you think that makes you right? So when your ideas weren't the majority did they lose their value? Sad will be the day when people only hold beliefs because these beliefs are the "winning" ones. You still haven't answered anyway. But don't worry. Your "team" was re-inaugurated today so go and cheerlead while your boss dances in the white house. Your purging of your republican past still isn't complete so keep on going.

I've been saying that for years man! Those that may truly believe in the rights aspect get lumped in with rednecks and gun nuts, who probably wouldn't bat an eye lash at other amendments being violated. It was all conservatives up in arms over that "ground zero mosque" including one I knew who's all about the gun rights...sad.

Anywho I'm disturbed by it as well. I said this earlier, not that I have issues with "we need guns to protect ourselves from the government!!!" but it comes off very survivalist freak, and I think damages their cause. I know smart, upper middle class people, that have turned their FB's and cars into NRA propaganda machines, and drivel on how we need armed revolutions, and the authorities being the great evil and why we need ak 47s.
One actually told me "I vote on guns" and how "He was OK with Obama because he didn't really do anything about guns at first." Naturally he's become the anti christ now, and this is someone with a degree from PSU and a high paying job!
Again, your belief...fine but the mentality behind it is a little frightening.

Yeah, at the fed level I see no issue with stringent background checks, child locks and closing the gun show loophole. It's not 'taking guns' from anyone. Is a background check or child locks really such an evil?
Much else I'd leave to the local level.

JJLehto wrote: The Truth wrote: I don't know if any of you guys watch Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld on Fox (the only decent television is at 2 in the morning) but he said in a recent show the Devin Townsend is going to be on some time this month. :O Nah I don't watch any Fox ever unless its football. Devy??? Interesting. Any idea why? I really hope he's not a neo con b*****d Edit: Just wikid the show, never heard of it, looks like its not as bad as typical Fox and one guy is a libertarian? Maybe Devy will be even more awesome! Also I hope he dresses as Ziltoid. I'd like to see political banter with Ziltoid

The Truth wrote: I don't know if any of you guys watch Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld on Fox (the only decent television is at 2 in the morning) but he said in a recent show the Devin Townsend is going to be on some time this month. :O

Only by accident if I flip across it.
But I did see Oderus Urungus from GWAR on there a while back. Pretty sure he was playing with his Cuttlefish of C'thulu the whole time, he seemed rather detached and distracted from the playful propagandizing format of the show.

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: TheDoc: these groups are usually labeled as the "right": neo cons, neo nazis, fascists, conservatives, libertarians, anarchocapitalists, religious groups, etc etc. I would like Geoff to explain me what is common among all these groups tha make them uniquevocally "the right". That would take a while to explain.  However, this sums it up quite nicely, and I find it resonates with where I used to be as well as where I am now: "Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence. Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."- William E. Gladstone I don't trust the people or the government.  I wholeheartedly approve of prudence and I don't fear anything except for spiders.  What does that make me?

An arachniphobe?

Certainly not a bad point, and like I've said the drug war is another factor for crime. Not that legalizing/decriminzaling would end crime but it would help a great deal. On P&T bullsh*t they had someone on that made a great point: the root of murder is either for profit, passion, or mental disease. Passion you simply can't fix, a sick b*****d well there may be ways but as you said its largely societal and familial. The profit part though we actually can help alleviate and it's easier than gun laws.

I won't laugh at you Jim if you talk about faith, family, parenting, respect, discipline, expectation, teaching methods, etc.... Of course I won't. I'd add empathy to that list (or the lack thereof really). Many people nowadays also interact with others only through a display, be it a phone or a computer. It's so much easier to think about hurting others when they are just figments of your imagination that come to live only when you turn the screen on. I don't know there is so much going on that might be causing that.

I know you wouldn't laugh at me Teo, it's just that socially conservative views are not exactly popular in here, even though I'm convinced they had some role in my experiences growing up, something I've just started to write about in a new piece. 

One thing people forget is that Dems were not always as they are today, they were once socially conservative as well.  And by SC I don't mean cramming a bible down your throat.  I mean most families from that period, Dem and Rep, had certain common values that we all shared, and kids were raised in same neighborhood where people were largely not violent and quite considerate of others.  They were polite and taught to be respectful.  The results from those days did not have this kind of sick violence despite the easy availability and loose attitudes about guns. 

The gun thing is so funny....when we were kids, we all ran around with toy guns....we could bring our cap guns to school and shoot them on the playground if we wanted.  Nowadays, our "enlightened" society has rules where a little boy can be expelled for pointing his finger at another  kid and saying "bang".   We have administrators freaking out and wasting money worrying about what kids are writing on their freakin' social media.  So we have these modern rules and look at the results.  Then look back to when kids played with guns openly, and parents taught their kids how to handle bullies without the help of endless bureaucracies of academic specialists.....I could go on all day about this stuff.  Point is, I clearly remember better days and I think I understand why.  No it wasn't perfect then, but when I hold up that experience to the world around me now, it's laughable. 

We think we're smarter now.  We laugh at "those old days" and how quaint they were.  But we're not smarter.  We, my generation, f-ed up big time and it looks like we'll never understand why.  And looking at Washington it's obvious our leaders and prez don't have a clue either.  We can't turn back clocks but we could learn some things from our past and try to understand what was it about that "traditional" upbringing that succeeded (despite guns and income disparities) while today's enlightenment gives us what we see on the news each day.  Actually, we do look back in the media and academia, but not to learn from people like my traditionalist parents, but to mock them, their values, and their methods as being what was wrong with America.  So be it.  Enjoy your enlightened future folks. 


Edited by Finnforest - January 22 2013 at 10:41

dtguitarfan wrote: JJLehto wrote: BTW DT fan is right. Liberalism is a faith in people. What he may not wanna hear though is that's why libertarianism IS liberalism! What's more trusting of people than limited government? After all, many pro government arguments, when you get to the core, is basically "we know better" "you cant do this" "I know whats best" "the people cant be trusted with this" etc etc  Conservatives have been the party of power: kings, the church, landed aristocracy...and they tend to distrust, if not loathe, "the people". I've been thinking about this today. I only had time for a short post this morning and I don't have time to write a book now, either. But it is very interesting how the status quo has changed the ideas of what is "conservative" and what is "liberal" - often "conservatives" aren't very conservative in certain areas (such as preserving our bloated military) and "liberals" aren't so liberal in others (such as gun control). And in the context of the quote I provided, it's not that "liberals" (and I'm including myself in this statement) have a complete, naive trust of the people. There are limits to that trust. And there is absolutely a better trust in what government can accomplish, where it seems "conservatives" only see government as evil. I think the concept of "everything in moderation" applies, and this is why I take such issue with "the right" while embracing "the left" - I see no moderation on "the right". I see only an absolute idolization of capitalism and a view of any opposition as the embodiment of evil. Whereas the left, it seems, is willing to see how broken this total embrace of capitalism has made our society and is trying to create a hybrid model, combining elements of other systems. Yes, that includes socialism. And I'm ok with that - because without socialism we wouldn't have public libraries, public roads, the NFL, or many other working systems. And the right can only seem to point and rage about the evils of socialism, but they fail to see that this is not a total embrace of the concept but an effort to combine elements of various systems to find something that works better. It is an attempt to deal with the known weaknesses of both systems.

As for a better trust in government DTfan, this is where my conversion actually happened.