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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 09:06 |
"stick" and "derogatory" comments - Prog Marmite?
Did it get much worse than that?
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What?
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 09:07 |
Snow Dog wrote:
..and ELP gets more stick than most of the classic prog bands. |
I think it's all down to Greg Lake's carpet.
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 09:27 |
chopper wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
..and ELP gets more stick than most of the classic prog bands. |
I think it's all down to Greg Lake's carpet. |
I hope that doesn't mean what I think it means.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 09:28 |
Evolver wrote:
chopper wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
..and ELP gets more stick than most of the classic prog bands. |
I think it's all down to Greg Lake's carpet. |
I hope that doesn't mean what I think it means. |
Unlikely, but we can't read you mind while you wear that tinfoil hat.
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What?
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moodyxadi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 01 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 417
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 16:10 |
One thing is dislike and criticize a musician an/or his works. Another - completely different - is trying to rewrite history based in his own preferences. ELP is more important and influent historically than any prog band post-80. That's a fact. Based on this fact, it's more than logical to question why their work is misrepresented in the list.
It's laughable when someone says that old farts feel enraged when music from the 80s onwards seems to outshine the 70's prog works. The 70's were the prog era (if ever was one); those bands were the most influential and create the standards for anything prog-related to be measured. Of course, music never stops but talking about prog rock (a genre that despite its creative flights in the 70s are more characterised by stagnation and more-of-the-sameness when you judge the sound of the "new" bands) is, after all, talking about the music of an era long finished.
Only when you take into consideration the age-factor of this site's audience (what was shown in other topics) you can understand why you have so lame reviews of the real warriors side by side with tears of joy for their pale reflections. It's just the young folks feeling more related to their own times and their natural absence of perspective and balance given by getting old - nothing new under the sun.
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Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.
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themightymasturbator
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 13 2013
Location: Derpleton
Status: Offline
Points: 7
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Posted: January 14 2013 at 16:28 |
^You seem to be implying old people have more musical perspective and balance than younger people. I hope you are not seriously suggesting that.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 01:37 |
ELP were never a pure prog band like Yes ,Genesis and King Crimson. They had far too much fun and didn't mind doing throw away stuff like Benny The Bouncer. They divide opinion here and they divide opinion everywhere else. Its not a problem and the absence of their albums from the top of the list is no surprise. I'm sure I've said this many times including on this thread. The other point in that they fell off the creative cliff a lot more spectacularly then their contemporaries. While the likes of Yes ,Genesis had a slower death ELP went for the full on car crash of Love Beach. This always made them look even less intelligent and less in control and has perhaps fuelled the negativity towards them.
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 01:41 |
Four words:too much Keith Emerson
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
Status: Offline
Points: 3145
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 02:10 |
thellama73 wrote:
It's a well known fact that prog fans have terrible taste in music.
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Gallifrey
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 15 2011
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 588
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 02:20 |
I think everyone's forgetting that "influential" and "important" does not necessarily mean good.
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http://thedarkthird.bandcamp.com/
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 02:25 |
ELP always seemed to be better at other peoples' material than their own.
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What?
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 06:04 |
Dean wrote:
ELP always seemed to be better at other peoples' material than their own. |
Masterpieces like "Tarkus" and "Karn Evil 9" belie that statement.
Although it was originally recorded by The Nice, ELP sometimes performed Emerson's atrocious cover of "Blue Rondo A La Turk". And "Fanfare For The Common Man" as played by ELP has always been a bore.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 06:41 |
Evolver wrote:
Dean wrote:
ELP always seemed to be better at other peoples' material than their own. |
Masterpieces like "Tarkus" and "Karn Evil 9" belie that statement.
Although it was originally recorded by The Nice, ELP sometimes performed Emerson's atrocious cover of "Blue Rondo A La Turk". And "Fanfare For The Common Man" as played by ELP has always been a bore. |
Maybe I'm just thinking of The Barbarian (Allegro Barbaro), Knife Edge (Sinfonietta), Pictures At An Exhibition, Nut Rocker, Hoedown, Jerusalem, Toccata, The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits, Peter Gunn, Romeo and Juliet, ... (if we're dragging The Nice into this then America was also performed live by ELP)... and comapring those will all the ELP songs that are not Tarkus and Karn Evil.
Edited by Dean - January 15 2013 at 06:45
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What?
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26138
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 06:49 |
richardh wrote:
ELP were never a pure prog band like Yes ,Genesis and King Crimson. They had far too much fun and didn't mind doing throw away stuff like Benny The Bouncer. They divide opinion here and they divide opinion everywhere else. Its not a problem and the absence of their albums from the top of the list is no surprise. I'm sure I've said this many times including on this thread. The other point in that they fell off the creative cliff a lot more spectacularly then their contemporaries. While the likes of Yes ,Genesis had a slower death ELP went for the full on car crash of Love Beach. This always made them look even less intelligent and less in control and has perhaps fuelled the negativity towards them. |
Good points.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 07:58 |
themightymasturbator wrote:
^You seem to be implying old people have more musical perspective and balance than younger people. I hope you are not seriously suggesting that. |
Why shouldn't he suggest that? It's probably not true for ALL older people (or all younger people, for that matter), but just the fact of having more time to listen, experiencing more era's of music, and having life experience to inform your tastes does, in fact, make a difference. When one is young, one tends to discount such things (I certainly did). That said, there are always exceptions to prove the rule he is suggesting. The biggest problem with young people, is they take others opinions about them too seriously Now..........you kids get off my lawn!!!!
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: January 15 2013 at 07:59 |
Dean wrote:
Evolver wrote:
Dean wrote:
ELP always seemed to be better at other peoples' material than their own. |
Masterpieces like "Tarkus" and "Karn Evil 9" belie that statement.
Although it was originally recorded by The Nice, ELP sometimes performed Emerson's atrocious cover of "Blue Rondo A La Turk". And "Fanfare For The Common Man" as played by ELP has always been a bore. |
Maybe I'm just thinking of The Barbarian (Allegro Barbaro), Knife Edge (Sinfonietta), Pictures At An Exhibition, Nut Rocker, Hoedown, Jerusalem, Toccata, The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits, Peter Gunn, Romeo and Juliet, ... (if we're dragging The Nice into this then America was also performed live by ELP)... and comapring those will all the ELP songs that are not Tarkus and Karn Evil. |
Very good point Dean. Personally, I prefer their own compositions (though, as you point out, some of those "borrow" heavily from other composers) to the "covers".
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KingCrInuYasha
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1281
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Posted: January 22 2013 at 13:41 |
thellama73 wrote:
It's a well known fact that prog fans have terrible taste in music.
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It could be worse. I could be a Lou Reed fan.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: January 23 2013 at 14:22 |
What does Love Beach sound like? - the fecking cover frightened me off from six feet away......Definately the worst cover ever by a major prog band.....
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aldri7
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 09 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 115
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Posted: January 23 2013 at 18:09 |
How one feels about ELP can really depends on whether you are a keyboardist first and prog fan second, or perhaps the other way around. I'm a keyboardist first and so I was always a KeithEmerson/ ELP fan.
But musically, I feel ELP was at times as much a victim of Keith's playing as it was defined by it. Unfortunately, he was more of a showman than an intellectual. Sometimes, virtuosity gets in the way of how others relate to your music. You want them to connect emotionally to it, not just go "Oh wow - can he play".
Anyway, I spent weeks learning to play Tarkus on the piano when I was 18. I was totally absorbed and awestruck by Keith for years. That he flashed and burned more noticeably than others takes nothing away from the brilliance of his unique approach to playing and his harmonic language. I only wish he had shown a little more restraint and crammed a little less of his cranial matter into his fingers. Sometimes, a band needs another member who can step back and play John Lennon alongside Liberace. Showmen by themselves can't always be relied upon to make artistic decisions regarding taste, etc.
But I never like to see people trash anyone who went his own way rather than played it safe an imitated others. Keith just did what felt right to him. Whether ELP was "pure prog" or not is not even worthy of contemplating. And ELP's legacy as a prog band doesn't matter to me as much as Keith's legacy as a keyboardist. Non keyboardists may shrug today when they listen to ELP. But I know young keyboardists really dig him still and want to learn how to play Tarkus, etc like I did. He is and always will be a legend to us. The problem is though that the most imitated bands set the standard by which young ears judge other music today. So that if it doesn't sound like King Crimson, Genesis or Pink Floyd, it sounds "funny" to them. Truth be told though - the ELP sound is less imitated yes - in part, due to poor artistic decisions they made at times, but also - it is less imitated because its so friggin' difficult! I do hear Keith imitators playing prog that otherwise sounds very little like ELP. Thats kind of what happens now, and while it sounds tame and watered down by comparison, it also is devoid of the excess and the filler songs that ELP detractors always bring up whenever they are comparing prog bands. I dunno - but Keith should have started a school where he taught others how he does it. And then maybe they could carry on that tradition, build on it and refine it. It beats us guys still trying to pic it all out note for note from listening (yeah, I know, you can buy Tarkus/ELP song books today, but anyway)...
aldri7
Edited by aldri7 - January 23 2013 at 22:21
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: January 23 2013 at 23:46 |
moodyxadi wrote:
One thing is dislike and criticize a musician an/or his works. Another - completely different - is trying to rewrite history based in his own preferences. ELP is more important and influent historically than any prog band post-80. That's a fact. Based on this fact, it's more than logical to question why their work is misrepresented in the list. |
Well that's not a rule, Hawkwind are conidered the fathers of Space Rock, I love Space Rock, but I can't listen more than a minute of them without wanting to crash my stereo against the wall
Gentle Giant, VDGG and King Crimson are considered genius, i can´'t stand most of their albums
ELP had two great albums, 2 good ones and some that should never been released, they had a fight with their label and in vengeance gave us "Love Beach" (In a tgime when there was no Internet to know if this was good or not), honestly I felt cheated, they didn't thought in their fans, they took revenge on the label and we paid the bill.
Plus, Emerson is a genius, but also an expert in butchering the classics with unnecessary sounds, like rubbing a mic in his arse during Pictures
moodyxadi wrote:
It's laughable when someone says that old farts feel enraged when music from the 80s onwards seems to outshine the 70's prog works. The 70's were the prog era (if ever was one); those bands were the most influential and create the standards for anything prog-related to be measured. Of course, music never stops but talking about prog rock (a genre that despite its creative flights in the 70s are more characterised by stagnation and more-of-the-sameness when you judge the sound of the "new" bands) is, after all, talking about the music of an era long finished. |
I am an old fart (was born in 1964), and i wish more bands were able to outshine the 70's, that would mean that Prog is getting better.
But the truth is that there are good and bad bands in the 60's, 70's, 80's,. 90's, 00's and 10's
moodyxadi wrote:
Only when you take into consideration the age-factor of this site's audience (what was shown in other topics) you can understand why you have so lame reviews of the real warriors side by side with tears of joy for their pale reflections. It's just the young folks feeling more related to their own times and their natural absence of perspective and balance given by getting old - nothing new under the sun.
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I honestly rate high, what I like and consider great, no matter when was it released, and I'm sure 99% of the collaborators also.
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