Abundance of one-man "bands" in modern prog |
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: January 01 2013 at 01:58 | |||||
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docall27
Forum Newbie Joined: December 22 2012 Location: Lake Geneva, WI Status: Offline Points: 35 |
Posted: January 01 2013 at 01:16 | |||||
Sorry, but this is mostly a crock of sh*te. Here's why: A quick scan of YouTube reveals a veritable plethora of young musicians that are AMAZING! Great drummers, guitar players, keyboard players...the level of commitment is unbelievable! No quantizing, no computers, just great players who have practiced hundreds of hours and who deserve to be recognized as such. I don't know if such a deep level of musicianship has existed in the past. A lot of these people choose NOT to play prog rock. They play metal, blues, alternative, pop, classical. The reason albums like Close to the Edge aren't made now is because the world is different. Wishing and hoping for someone to step forward and make great prog like 40 years ago is a fool's errand. That's like wishing Beethoven back to life. Times and music have changed. Accept it.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 22:29 | |||||
He never said he is not INTERESTED in forming a band. Why don't you attempt to consider his practical problems, which is what many young musicians face today. The system that existed in your youth does not support prog rock anymore. Forget newcomers, established bands have resorted to self releasing albums with contributions from fans (Marillion, Maudlin of the Well and Renaissance come to mind) because they can't get labels to promote their work. But the system of today offers flexibility that couldn't have been afforded in the 70s. A musician can get the word out about himself and connect with possible future bandmates by simply recording his stuff and putting it out there on the internet for somebody to listen. Bands don't have to wait on labels to give them a contract, they can network and work their way up though it still remains a difficult environment. Contrary to your skeptical perspective, most young, aspiring rock musicians I have spoken to would love to have a band and perform music with real instruments. But until one forms the band, what.....why not just record and put some music out there? It's likely not going to make him an overnight success so there's no danger of him becoming a one man act forever.
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 22:16 | |||||
you sure are making a lot of generalizations. I have a one man band
because I don't know musicians proficient and creative enough to work
with me, and I see no reason to just do nothing with my musical ideas
while I wait around to find other people to play with. I also try to
record real sounds as much, with acoustic percussion and mic'ing my
guitar amp
Would I be taking the high road if I let my ideas sit around and wither away as I continue to be unable to find people to work with? This is exactly my point with the one man band phenomenon. It's a shame that there is so little interest in bands forming to explore complex creative music played in real time by real humans and recorded properly without the artificial aid of computers substituting for actual human musicianship and skill. What is amazing to me is that if you listen to the great vintage prog bands like YES and GENESIS, CRIMSON, etc.. some of these records were made when these kids were in their early 20's. I mean you have seasoned musicians today still trying to figure out how they did it ... yet alone at such as young age. With youth often comes a lot of free time... high ideals, and integrity. As you get older, most cave in to having to pay bills and make a living.. support a family.. so all the artistic vision and integrity goes out the window. It's really such a shame because if you look at classical composers.. many of them did their best work in their later years. Why can't YES do something even more interesting and artful that Tales from Topographic Oceans.... NOW! I don't think any of the great prog bands started off worrying about where the industry was going when they started out.. but they all caved in during the 80's because of the influence of punk and new wave garbage. So, yes, it is hard to keep a band together.. but if the goal is to explore the possibilities of making great music with great sounding instruments that could also be performed in a live setting, and money or fame is not the objective nor scoring trim and tail after the show.. then there could be a chance to do something great.. even today. I still have hope. There is still a lot of doors to open and explore and keep a sound your own... start with one of the many doors into odd metering.. explore alternate tunings and learn some basic composition skills such as how to play off a theme, how to build a proper crescendo etc...hold out for a great drummer who has jazz chops but also has every Black Sabbath album and can play both rock and jazz sensitively but also hammer it home when needed. A rare breed but they are out there. Make sure the guy on the keyboard bench has strong classical training.... make sure your guitarist can play great on acoustic as well as be able to solo over odd time. Make sure everyone in your band owns some vinyl records and knows the difference. Open your ears and share the journey and study the legacy the greats left for us.. don't study who ever is getting the most hits on youtube. Have some F*&$&%N integrity. Ponder a vinyl only release... so your fans actually have something tangible. Give Apple and itunes the finger for ripping off artists and destroying the music industry. Be the new voice of reason.. Make a statement. Turn on your contemporaries like the greats did when they were young. Say no to Dream Theater. Say yes to tone and articulation. Great music is more about restraint than chops... but make sure your fans know you have it also.. just enough to keep them guessing. Led Zeppelin was great at this. Are they on itunes? NO F*%&$& WAY.. as long as Page is alive.. they will not be on itunes. Cover all your bases.. make sure you are the worst musician in your band. The others should feel the same. Get someone who can really sing.. better if they also play an instrument so they are intrinsically tied to the music and not just standing around at rehearsal.... unless he or she completely adores you guys. Like Jon Anderson did. Be the band that stands above the others.. be real .. be musicians.. real musicians.. tell the press you don't need all the computers doing things for you.. we are better than that. that stuff is for hackers... and wanna bees.. |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 19:18 | |||||
Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry for misunderstanding. Yes, it's difficult to get a good guitar sound with anything other than a guitar, a nylon even more so maybe. |
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Sumdeus
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 23 2012 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 831 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 14:36 | |||||
you sure are making a lot of generalizations. I have a one man band because I don't know musicians proficient and creative enough to work with me, and I see no reason to just do nothing with my musical ideas while I wait around to find other people to play with. I also try to record real sounds as much, with acoustic percussion and mic'ing my guitar amp Would I be taking the high road if I let my ideas sit around and wither away as I continue to be unable to find people to work with? |
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Sumdeus - surreal space/psych/prog journeys
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 14:28 | |||||
Nothing said by Surunrealist was worth my effort to get involved.
However, I will give my tuppence worth in Todd's ADA thread. Edited by Dean - December 31 2012 at 17:28 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 13:16 | |||||
I wonder if, when Bach sat down at the keyboard of a church pipe organ for the first time and pulled out the "Flute" stop, he thought to himself "Bleagh!! that doesn't even sound like a flute, there's no breath sounds and I'd better not play chords with this stop because that would be unnatural as a flute is monophonic"
No, of course he didn't - he pulled the stop and played it like an organ, with chords and arpeggios and huge stabs of sound that would rattle the windows and growling swells of sound that could hold a note for as long as the peasant boy on the bellows could peddle that would reverberate around the hall in a way that any number of flautists could never imagine producing. Yet I'm sure Johan Sebastian, who was a proficient organist, could (with the lightest of touches across the keyboard) produce a trill and flutter that was a good approximation to a real flute, close enough at least for the sound he wanted to make, just as a proficient keyboardist can take a "guitar" sample on the cheapest Yamaha keyboard and play it in an approximation of a real guitar as long as he uses his fingers to replicate the attack and decay of a plucked note rather than a keyed note (which is why keyboardists like touch-sensitive keyboards) - expression is what it says it is - expression.
However, keyboard players playing a guitar or flute sound are not trying to mimic a guitar or flute, a guitarist using a guitar synth or a bank of analogue & digital effects are not trying to mimic other instruments - the synthesiser may have been designed to synthesise other instruments but it came into its own as an instrument when musicians began to experiment and explore the aural sound-scape of the instrument itself and not as a simulacrum of other instruments. Even with the bestist imaginary guitar synth in the whole world ever a guitarist cannot replicate a piano piece (even the crummiest baddest piano piece in the whole world ever) because a guitar is only 6 (or 7) note polyphonic - once a guitar gets 10-note polyphony it stops being a guitar - but the guitarist can do something with that piano sound that a pianist can never do - he can bend it and slide it and do all those flash things that guitarists can do, hammer on and pull off, two hand tapping and he can add vibrato and tremolo and feedback and distortion, but he can't replicate the two-handed playing of a piano.
It's like a Rhodes electric piano is not a grand piano, it's a poor imitation of a grand piano, but it is an instrument in its own right, with its own sounds and its own nuances such that it now is being imitated but those imitations are not a Rhodes electric piano, nor are they a simulation of an electric piano imitating a grand piano, they are instruments in their own right, with their own sounds and their own nuances that use the basic characteristic sound of a Rhodes electric piano as their fundamental sound just as the Rhodes used the basic characteristic sound of a grand piano as their fundamental sound. No one would use a Rhodes when a Grand Piano was called for, so why expect a synth to do the same?
It's like a mellotron is not an orchestra, it is a sample of an orchestra playing one note for each key, but when it's played it bears little resemblance to a real orchestra playing that melody or tune - it can't, nor did anyone ever expect it to.
A modern organ is an electronic representation of a electromechanical organ which in turn is an electromechanical representation of a mechanical organ of pipes and valves, which in turn is a mechanical representation of all manner of different instruments from strings to woodwind to percussion to animal - nothing here is pure or genuine.
When Peter Gabriel got his hands on a Fairlight digital sampler he didn't use it "out of the box" to replace other instruments and musicians, he appreciated what this new instrument represented to a creative mind and explored the new avenues of sound it opened up. When musicians start attempting to replicate the sound of other instruments I begin to wonder whether they've missed the whole point of these instruments, and when critics complain that these sounds are not faithful representations then I begin to wonder what occurred in the history of using these tools to create music that brought us to this sorry state of affairs. I stopped recording music back in 2006, not because of some creative block (I still play for my own amusement and compose new melodies and tunes without too much difficulty, I'm currently building an electric cello from scratch for my own enjoyment because I enjoyed composing cello music and now want to play what I composed myself), but because I produced an album that I didn't like... yet there is nothing too wrong with that album - the tunes, melodies and arrangements are adequate, the playing is as good as I someone of my limited ability can play and the programming is as natural as I can make it.. and there is the problem (and this has nothing to do with being a one-man band or trying to be a band or lacking some unwanted input from a bass player who is only interested in playing his part louder than anyone else or from a drummer who insists on putting unnecessary fills and ruffles into the natural breathing spaces in the dynamic flow of MY VISION of how a tune should sound, because I am a selfish and jealous sod who wants my music to be my creation and no one elses)... the problem with that particular album was it was all too natural, it should have been played by an ensemble, (one that is beyond my resources to put together), not a one man band - and that to my ears was fraudulent and not what I set out to produce when I began recording music for my own amusement. Edited by Dean - December 31 2012 at 13:25 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 12:59 | |||||
I do agree that your playing style changes with changes of timbre and effects. As I said I'm also a guitar player (even if I am on a long hiatus) and I have a Boss GT-10 pedalboard, and indeed your playing style automatically changes depending on the timbre and effects you are using. I notice this unconsciously on myself, and surely when you master it consciously you may be able to get the most of it.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 12:47 | |||||
I was meaning it the other way around, when someone attempts to generate the timbre of a nylon or acoustic guitar from another instrument (say a MIDI DAW sequencer or a keyboard). The device may produce a decent replica of the guitar sound (although most people will agree that guitars are among the hardest instruments to emulate faithfully) but it will never produce the natural sound of your left hand gliding across the fretboard as you change chords (I'm a guitar player too BTW). The POG2 is a guitar effects device and therefore you are still playing a guitar and the sound of the gliding hand may still be preserved (I never played on one, I just have a Boss GT-10 and I didn't explore yet 10% of what it's capable of doing).
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 11:50 | |||||
On the largest point of your post I agree. Different instruments will lend themselves to different types of playing uniquely their own. Definitely agree. Anyone who has tried to adapt pieces written for one instrument to another instrument knows this. But it's also a creatively stimulating thing to try. Steve Hackett has always described his motivation for coming up with two handed tapping as his effort to keep up with and mirror the keyboard. This a good point that I fully acknowledge. On the other hand, this point seems a little weaker for bands with two guitar players, or two of some other instrument. It's true also that people's approach to playing changes or should change with changes in timbre, such as one gets from an effects pedal. There's nothing more annoying than to see someone one YouTube demonstrate a Slow Motion pedal, and they're playing dozens of notes in rapid succession. You adapt to the pedal if you know how to use the pedal, so there is an element of multiple personality to consider in this. I might also point out that the guitar adds it's own contribution. Hearing the guitar do string bends with the POG2 would surely put a smile on Adrian Belew's face. So, instead of a band or virtual band with a guitarist and organ player, you have a band or virtual band with a guitarist and a guitar organ player. Are certain line ups supposed to be out of bounds? As for the point about not being able to hear fingers gliding across the fretboard, that's something testable. I tried it out on the POG2 with the dry signal turned all the way (which is normally what you do for the best organ sound). You can in fact hear fingers on the fretboard although it tends to drowned out by the sheer density of the sound. To make the point more poignant, you can hear a pick scrape just as audibly with the POG2 as with straight guitar. Edited by HackettFan - December 31 2012 at 12:07 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 10:49 | |||||
None is more real or fake, that's not the point. Each instrument has its characteristics and these go far beyond timbre. The way a piano or keyboard are played (or any other instrument for what matters) brings with itself its own characteristics of velocity control, possibilities for arpeggiation, polyphony control, natural vibrato etc etc. Even if you can produce the timbre of a piano from your fretboard I don't think you can ever faithfully replicate this piece playing a guitar Another example, a common weak point of programmed acoustic guitars is that you do not hear the sound of the fingers gliding across the fretboard as you change chords. This may sound trivial to some but it gives a very annoying feeling to anybody who knows how a real nylon or acoustic guitar sounds. Some might consider the sound of a gliding hand a "sound imperfection", but sometimes it's the imperfections like this which give soul to an instrument's sound (similarly, the breathing for a singer or for a wind instrument).
Well this was not my actual original point although I made some comment in that sense in the OP. Even when you can control multiple parts in real time they will not reflect the contribution input and playing style of different musicians, which I think has been a key element in the greatness of much of the Prog-Rock music I love. For the 10th time I will reckon that one-man can produce excellent music, but it's hard to imagine that much of the band music I love could have been the product of a one-man release. |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 10:35 | |||||
My point is that the Hammond Organ with Leslie became an integral part of many forms of music. Jazz, Prog, Blues, Rock, Reggae, Folk, church and for good reason. It sounds great and it works. Their have been other organs, Wurlitzer etc.. but most organ players I know would side with the tube driven Hammonds. At this point in history, it has been a time tested instrument that has embedded itself firmly into the concsiousness of western music.
The argument that is was simply a bad substitute for a pipe organ may be relavant to church music, but not for the other mentioned forms. Jimmy Smith took the B3 and really made it sing in a way it had never done before. And while they are not necessarily easy to move around, they have been on tour since the 50's traveling everywhere. Not convenient but with a bit of determination they can be moved around and are still moved around. But like everything in this age of convenience, integrity loses out to most, and musicians take the easy way out with the digital keyboards. They sound pretty good.. good enough to the novice, or ignorant. It's the $4 bottle of wine. It takes like wine and I didn't throw up.. I'll take a case. So this really comes back to the one man band. It's easy. Why deal with the drama of other opinions. Why save up and actually buy the real instruments when one can just download the plugin or filter. Why spend the money to rent a proper studio space with real acoustics when you can just add reverb from a digital plugin. So whether it's economics, which it surely is for many... or just laziness, it is the path most are taking.... and the result? Some decent music... However... where is the next TARKUS the next DSOTM CLOSE TO THE EDGE THICK AS A BRICK FOXTROT POWER AND THE GLORY LARK'S TONGUE HEMISPHERES PHYSICAL GRAFFITTI So, while sure.. there is a ton of new prog coming out. Lots of good ideas and flashy playing. Slick sounding computer aided production. But for anyone 40 plus.. better 50 plus... who actually lived through the golden age... something has SERIOUSLY Gone wrong. The one man band is nothing more than taking the low road.. the path of least resistance for whatever reason or excuse. It is what it is... but one thing is for certain... it falls well short of the collective possibility of the human potential. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 10:03 | |||||
I confess I find the notion of organic and natural applied to keyboards a bit baffling. Barring the piano, I can hardly relate to the touch and feel of them in the way I would to guitar or even drums. And before you say D-I-G-I-T-A-L, I have attended concerts please....you cannot compare a piano to an organ or a synth. The only instrument I ever got around to learning even the basics of was the keyboard and I still say that. It is a great instrument for complexity and independence, not so much for expression. To me, this simply suggests a fondness or preference for some kinds of tones over others. I do agree with a point made earlier in the thread about drums and bass - that people who are not very proficient at them can simply choose boring parts, aside from considerations of whether it sounds organic enough or not. That again is a problem that can and should be overcome with good compositional skill, so we are clutching at the wrong end of the stick here.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17497 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 09:57 | |||||
Hmmm ....
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 09:18 | |||||
Okay, since it's irrelevant. There are plenty of analog effects out there too, and players in a band may well be using digital technology as well. I have an 'Is the ADA PitchTraq Analog?' thread in the Tech Talk section. If it is analog, as I suspect, it would be a pain in the neck, but I could probably put together a combination of several effects that would be an analog alternative to the POG2.
What's "right" about an organ sound. As I Dean and I already said, it's the great granddaddy of "imitation" instruments. Why are you presuming that a soloist is not going to use amplifiers?
I never rejected virtuosity. I only pointed out that it was not the only value in Prog. If it's not a necessary condition, it's also not a sufficient condition either.
What is real about an organ and what is fake about a guitar? I presume that there would be a natural motivation to learn to play the organ rather than the guitar if one were already a keyboardist. A guitarist on the other hand can stick with a fretboard and play quite capably with a POG2. This came up because of the strange accusation that people could not play multiple instruments well.
True enough. The point initially as I saw it, which may have gotten lost, is that there is the capability for a soloist to launch, play and control multiple parts in real time, and "discover" a composition just like a jam band does. They can improvise and groove while doing this. It is not equal to a band. It is equivalent to a band. Edited by HackettFan - December 31 2012 at 09:39 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17497 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 08:41 | |||||
This is one of the exercises and things that are worked in really advanced acting classes, btw ... to help you get rid of the idea that what you think is the message, instead of what you do! And how ... which is a later issue that can be reviewed and learned from, for example!
Otherwise, it is just moneky doodoo ... and then a banana or chips get thrown in by a kid into the cage and his attention is gone ... and he doesn't care about the instrument again!
I think, that is what we like to think ... "music is" ... something that is focused, instead of "accidental" ... which a lot of 20th century folks made a living of trying to break!
The "spark" ... I think, is also an "idea" that we create, and spend our lives chasing ... sort of like "God" ... that "supposedly" helps us get on through the full day, because we can not imagine going through it without it! ... and society tells you that you are not supposed to, either! (Soc 101 ... hehehe!)
So, seeing "one-man" anythings, even from Mike Oldfield to anyone else ... is just a lazy term ... for not wanting to listen to music, and to "classify" ... the things they (someone) wants to listen to ... but the thought that the only real music is the one that is played with other folks, has been busted for 500 years ... so someone still saying that ... obviously has not studied any music history whatsoever ... and how each composer changed the mores of the times and music!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17497 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 08:25 | |||||
If I may suggest, you are over-thinking these improvisations, and all you need to do is talk to an advanced acting teacher, specially one that works with modern theater (not old crap!), so that you can learn to focus things better.
The point in "improvisations" is NOT to find if it is good or bad, for the most part ... that is another story, but to help you make sure that you can play together and STAY together, and complement each other. IF ... all you are worried about something being good or bad, you are not listening to each other and figuring out what you can do in the improvisation, to help each other's moments (or together-ness) come about, and all of a sudden ... you have something you can work with.
BUT, it also tells me, that you are looking for a "song", or something that you can use as a basis for a something else ... and at this point, may I suggest that you make a piece and call it "anti-song" or "anti-music" and let it fly and blow out, WITHOUT any rhyme or reason, up to and including sound effects and vacuum cleaners ... until you drop the "idea" of music ... and realize ... what the notes can do for you.
If you want more on this, you really might want to read Peter Brook's works, and specially things like "The Empty Space" ... and although the wording might seem way too intelectual, in the end, you know that he is merely trying to find words to that ... wow ... moment! And his theater experiments were scary to most folks ... imagine being part of a troupe that had at least 12 nationalities, and they could not converse with each other, and yet, they spoke, and put together a spectacle, called ... "The Mahabharatta". Imagine that in music ... yeah ... imagine that! More progressive than progressive EVER will be!
And your "improvisations" ... are not focused ... but my suggestion, is that every other improvisation NOT be focused, to get the ability to flow better. AND ... for a while, only record the non-focused stuff that is all out there ... and just ENJOY IT ... do not use this as a way to "find" Godot ... use this to FIND YOURSELF. That is the clue in all music and the difference between the good ones and the rest! Most "popular" music is about the "rest", not the good ones!
Have fun Edited by moshkito - December 31 2012 at 08:28 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 08:09 | |||||
I think that the particular choice of instruments is not particularly relevant to the discussion of the one-man phenomenon. Some one-man "bands" may indeed make more use of digital / sampled instruments but that is not necessarily the case, and while one may embrace them or reject them, that is quite a different discussion IMO (of which we had already a lot on the "importance of analog sound" thread).
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 31 2012 at 08:04 | |||||
Sure, multi-instrumentalists are nothing new and I would bet that most professional musicians can play multiple instruments better than many of us even if in their band work we only see them playing always their main instrument. But we are talking about playing in a stellar manner here. It's undeniable that virtuosity has been a contributing element in much Prog throughout history (certainly not a must condition for good Prog but it has played a role). Having a Lifeson, a Lee and a Peart getting to play together was already a blessing of destiny, hoping to have the talent, virtuosity and creativity of the three packed in a single person seems more like asking for a miracle (not saying that it's impossible but you know what I mean). And the same could be said of many of the greatest Prog bands in history. As for playing organ from a guitar etc... I am a supporter of technology but I have reservations about stating that because it is technically possible who cares about being able to play a real organ anymore. We have calculators and computers so you could say "who cares about learning arithmetic anymore", but I believe that learning arithmetic is still useful for developing our rational capabilities.
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