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Surrealist View Drop Down
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 17:54
Originally posted by Rushforever Rushforever wrote:

IMHO, analog is really better than digital. Just one thought:

signal modified by analog = a variation of the same signal

signal modified by digital = new signal that sounds like the analog variation, but is totally different by the first signal.




Excellent observation
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 18:17
however inaccurate that may be.
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2012 at 10:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

however inaccurate that may be.
 
It's a shame that these folks are only discussing this from ONE point of view ... and they can not even read what someone like Edgar Froese has stated about it ... it's only from the Neil Young school of music! Which I enjoy, mind you, but the sunday preaching about analog can go to the toilet for me, and I will leave when it starts!
 
It's not wether analog or digital that is important ... it is the person behind it ... or the rest is immaterial ... pull the plug on the damn thing, and there is no analog or digital ... BUT THERE WILL BE A MUSICIAN!
 
The terms themselves are an AFTER THE FACT issue, and have nothing to do with Bacon and Eggs when you are hungry!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 20 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2012 at 12:02
All forms of media communication be it analog or digital have inherent flaws.There is no perfect medium (film,TV,music,etc). I believe once we get past that ideology we'll be able to move on.Now,excuse me while I listen to my 1920's phonograph cylinderWink


Edited by Lifeofprog - December 31 2012 at 16:57
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Points: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2012 at 16:14
31st year of this silly argument, there would be no analog left if C.D. was able to equal or better it.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
    Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2012 at 17:14
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

31st year of this silly argument, there would be no analog left if C.D. was able to equal or better it.

Pardon?
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Surrealist View Drop Down
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2013 at 20:59
You can't hear what you can't hear...

Digital Sheep
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Points: 35 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2013 at 23:18
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Analog or Digital?  It's a preference and nothing more. 

No....I would say it is more like taking a audiophile IQ test.

 The analog sound path alters the signal.

Yes, and in a very good way.  Just as a great sounding guitar alters the harmonic tone of vibrating strings and creates something better than if you just ran strings across a hacksaw frame.

An audiophile IQ test?  You would say evidently then that anyone who disagrees with you is an audiophile dumbass?  Sounds pretty subjective to me.  You CAN'T quantitatively prove that one is better than the other.

As for the great sounding guitar theory, read what Dave Gilmore has said on the subject: that the tone is in his fingers, not the guitar, and that he can sound like Dave Gilmore on a cheap knock off.
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2013 at 03:44
You CAN'T quantitatively prove that one is better than the other.

Of course I can... I have ears...
Sampled anything is inferior to non sampled.
Gilmore's best guitar work was all recorded on analog tape.  Not much to debate there.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2013 at 04:11
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

You CAN'T quantitatively prove that one is better than the other.

Of course I can... I have ears...
Sampled anything is inferior to non sampled.
Gilmore's best guitar work was all recorded on analog tape.  Not much to debate there.
None of that is quantitative proof. It's not objective proof either, nor is it empirical proof. It is subjective opinion and cannot be substantiated or subjected to any rational proof.
 
I have said time and time again, I have no problem with your subjective preferences, if that's what you like then that's fine by me, but once you start insulting people even if that is aimed at people in general and is non-specific and non-personal, then your "argument" ceases to be an argument, you slam the door to debate in people's faces.
 
Gerard made a heartfelt and reasonable comment regarding your posting style. While I don't expect you would listen to anything I would say, please do him the courtesy of at least listening to what he had to say.
 
 
 
 
David Gilmore is a fine Jazz guitarist, but I am no judge of Jazz, all of his recordings were made in the 21st Century and were most likely done in digital, perhaps he did use analogue tape - I don't know and have no interest in finding out. David Gilmour is a fine Prog guitarist and I like his playing style, his touch and his ability to make everything he plays appear to be uncomplicated and effortless no matter where, when or how it was recorded. Wink


Edited by Dean - January 04 2013 at 04:45
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Points: 17511 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2013 at 11:49
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

You CAN'T quantitatively prove that one is better than the other.

Of course I can... I have ears...
 
Surrealist ... this is bad ... it's almost like saying no one else does.
 
Please read up on Edgar Froese, and his discussion of analog/digital. You are missing the point of the whole thing ... and resorting to your preference. It's ok to have a preference, but not ok to gun them down with it!
 
The "process" is NOT the music ... the person before it is! Please stop thinking that doing it left handed instead of right handed is better than chop suey!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2013 at 11:55
But he is right!
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
    Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 05:04
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

But he is right!
Having ears does not quantitatively prove that one is better than the other, ergo he is not right. Having ears can be qualitative, it can never be quantitative. HOWEVER, since there can be no universal agreement in which is better (and the claim of "having ears" is facetious since we all "have ears" and in pure quantitative measures I have two ears, which is above the human average number for the whole population of the world) from a purely qualitative perspective, that would never be "proof".
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 06:06
This article claims that in practice digital playback sounds objectively better than analog playback (not to be confused with "better than the original analog signal if heard directly by the ear") because it is capable of eliminating (part of) the unavoidable noise which is introduced in the recording + playback process, a property that analog playback does not have.

See chapter "Digital vs Errors" towards the end where it says "That is why digital playback reliably sounds good compared to analog"




 



Edited by Gerinski - January 06 2013 at 06:07
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 07:59
Quite more technical and detailed, this article may also be interesting.
Page 359 bottom says that "Hi-Fi digital audio systems are designed to exceed the limits of (human) hearing" and "the sound quality of the CD system far exceeds older systems such as records and tapes", and makes also similar comments about the capability of digital systems to correct noise or other unwanted distortions during the playback process.



Edited by Gerinski - January 06 2013 at 08:15
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Points: 100 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 09:58
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

What is wrong with listening to music  on Youtube?  My children do it. We all used to listen to AM radio back in the seventies. Nearly everyone had them in the kitchen, bit of breakfast show  before school. Charts at lunchtime. Happy days...

Many of us listened to Luxembourg in bed. Terrible sound but I heard some good music for all  that.
 
It is impossible to listen to music on you tube. The 'sound' that comes out of the computer is not that created by the artist.
Luxemberg ditto. It is the same as asking what is wrong with looking at only 22% of the Mona Lisa? The answer is the same. If you do not enjoy 100% of the artists creation, then you have not experienced it as it was intended to be experienced.
If you did not like the Mona Lisa and insisted on painting over it in blue. You could then not ask the question, 'What is wrong with me 'version' of the Mona Lisa. Thus listening to the noise coming from You Tube and asking what is wrong, is being satisfied with a massively inferior representation.
Get yourself a rega turntable, buy the record you 'think' you have heard on You Tube and then send me your commments. you will have experienced an epiphany.
 
You are welcome.
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Points: 100 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 10:01
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

31st year of this silly argument, there would be no analog left if C.D. was able to equal or better it.
Abslutely and now record sales are on the increase, despite the fact that children think they hear music on You Tube???!!!
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 10:16
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

31st year of this silly argument, there would be no analog left if C.D. was able to equal or better it.

Abslutely and now record sales are on the increase, despite the fact that children think they hear music on You Tube???!!!
Sounds good don't it? In 2011 Vinyl sales were 39% up on 2010  - 337,000 vinyl abums sold in the UK... the highest figure since 2005.
 
Of course that's compared to 86,000,0000 CDs and 27,000,000 album download sales. In 2011 vinyl accounted for just shy of 0.3% of all album sales. And of course hip-hop and techno accounted for most of those vinyls.
 
Does also beg the question of what happened between 2005 and 2010 to cause a comparable drop in vinyl sales to be able to measure that increase against - can't really blame CD or downloads for that since both were around long before 2005. One explanation is simply fashions and fads.
 
But hey - a 39% increase. Approve


Edited by Dean - January 06 2013 at 10:27
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

If you do not enjoy 100% of the artists creation, then you have not experienced it as it was intended to be experienced.


The artist only wrote the words, the notes and proceeded to perform them.   An album from the vinyl age has substantial input from the engineer that determines what recording quality we get to hear.   It's only in more recent years that artists have begun to self produce albums, many of which are in CD or even mp3, which I expect is 'impossible' to listen to.  So this is more like saying if the lighting at the Louvre was bad, you'd describe the Mona Lisa as a bad painting.

What is impossible is for you to tell your mind to break some barriers.  If you do not ever use a service like youtube, how do you expect to keep pace with new music, much of which has to be sampled for the first time there in the absence of any radio or TV promotion?   Listening to the same old records over and over may be a good option for you, but not for everyone.  
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Points: 7852 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 10:33
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

 
It is impossible to listen to music on you tube. The 'sound' that comes out of the computer is not that created by the artist.
Luxemberg ditto. It is the same as asking what is wrong with looking at only 22% of the Mona Lisa? The answer is the same. If you do not enjoy 100% of the artists creation, then you have not experienced it as it was intended to be experienced.
Back then, in my schooldays, I've heard "Dark Side of the Moon" for the first time from crappy mono reel to reel copy and it was like heaven, it was music from another planet.

Now I have the album on CD, LP and Super-Audio CD with surround sound, but, no matter how I try, I can't bring back that "unearthly" feeling.

It's possible to listen to music from any source, quality sound is a good bonus but not a main thing at all. 
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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