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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 02:06
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ You are missing the point. An artist works so hard, puts so much love and care into a work that cannot be understood by everyone on this globe, and he gets a f$%king star or two for the work? Who are we to say that we are at the liberty to judge someone's music based on what we like? Discrimination is what it is, and the rating system is a means to do that.*

* Sorry for sounding a bit like a radical. Just trying to sell a point.
 
Fair enough but most musicians (artists in general) hope that their work will be appreciated by the public and sell. They do not just compose and record the music and keep it for themselves, they publish it and hope that people will like it and buy it.
 
So the judgement by the public is an unavoidable part of the game. If the public does not appreciate the work, we may not be entitled to say that it is "bad" but it is fair to say that the musician failed in an aspect of his target. 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 11:23
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

2) It just seemed like you were having a problem with the system considering "factors such as quality and importance" that "[leave] no room for other combinations".

I think you're misunderstanding me. The PA rating system is based both on quality and importance as determining factors. So far, so good. The problem then is that it accepts only certain combinations of quality and importance. For example, there is no valid rating for an essential album that is not a masterpiece, because the rating system implies that every masterpiece is essential and every essential album is a masterpiece. When rating an album like In the Court of the Crimson King, I'm faced with a dilemma: Do I give it 5 stars because I think it's essential, or do I give it 4 stars because I think it's not a masterpiece? For that reason, I ignore the "importance" factor completely and assign my ratings as if quality (i.e. my personal enjoyment) were the only deciding factor. Generally that lines up pretty well with the PA rating system.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ You are missing the point. An artist works so hard, puts so much love and care into a work that cannot be understood by everyone on this globe, and he gets a f$%king star or two for the work? Who are we to say that we are at the liberty to judge someone's music based on what we like? Discrimination is what it is, and the rating system is a means to do that.

Okay, let's only say positive things about music.Wink

In all seriousness, don't take ratings for something they are not. They're merely an indicator of how much we enjoy an album. When I give Atom Heart Mother (an album that certainly had a lot of work put into it) one star, that doesn't mean I'm criticizing Pink Floyd for making it or that I think they shouldn't have made it. I'm grateful that they made it, just like I'm grateful that any piece of music was made. It just means that I wouldn't care to hear it again.

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

We should ditch ratings altogether and keep it to reviews...

That wouldn't solve anything. I've read many, many reviews that are more arrogant, presumptuous and judgmental than a simple number could ever be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 11:33
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

We should ditch ratings altogether and keep it to reviews.....
I once contributed reviews to a publication that worked like that.   You read the review, and if it sounds like something you'd like, you check it out.  All without any stars in sight.  The Trouser Press Record Guide was like that too.  The reviewers in both cases certainly made their opinions felt, pro or con, but no band had to suffer the stigma of a low numerical ranking. 

I would be perfectly ok if PA did that too, although PA is a little different in that it's not just a collection of reviews, but a database of information, designed to make it easy to find something you might like -- thus, the genre teams and the star rankings.  Reviews alone would mean finding recommendations for the average Joe a bit difficult and time consuming. 

I suspect a lot of people use this site who aren't collaborators or forum participants, and the site seems to be designed in a way to be useful to the casual passer-by (thus, more traffic and more revenue) as well as the drooling maniacs like us.


Edited by HolyMoly - November 30 2012 at 11:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 12:03
Yeah, with all their limitations rankings are still useful, but surely you must read reviews before blindly trusting numerical rankings. That's why PA is great because it allows everybody to write reviews and not just rate so you get to read more varied points of view and opinions.
 
For me it's quite OK as it is.


Edited by Gerinski - November 30 2012 at 12:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 13:28
But we also have to consider the fact that a lot of members of this site are very negligent of what each rating means. This only makes rating unreliable. Sure you can look at a rating and figure whether this album will work for you or not, but ...
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Yeah, with all their limitations rankings are still useful, but surely you must read reviews before blindly trusting numerical rankings. That's why PA is great because it allows everybody to write reviews and not just rate so you get to read more varied points of view and opinions.
This makes the usefulness of ratings questionable.

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

In all seriousness, don't take ratings for something they are not. They're merely an indicator of how much we enjoy an album.
How can you tell? That depends on the rating system's criteria, no? 

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

When I give Atom Heart Mother (an album that certainly had a lot of work put into it) one star, that doesn't mean I'm criticizing Pink Floyd for making it or that I think they shouldn't have made it. I'm grateful that they made it, just like I'm grateful that any piece of music was made. It just means that I wouldn't care to hear it again.
Why would you be grateful for that?

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

We should ditch ratings altogether and keep it to reviews...
That wouldn't solve anything. I've read many, many reviews that are more arrogant, presumptuous and judgmental than a simple number could ever be.
That does not make ratings any less problematic.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 30 2012 at 13:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 18:03
I would have to say that the written part is the easier part of this rating process - choosing the 'score' is always difficult (especially between 4 and 5) - click 5 and that little warning window appears and then I question myself.........sometimes it's "nah, f**k it, 5 it is, others it's with great pondering.... "O.K. I'll tick 4 and call it 4 and a half".  But most people probably won't agree.  What happens when an album, say the new one from 'Echolyn' (which is quite superb) is given a 1 or 2 stars by some random folk but the written part says (now this is NOT a quote) 'it's complex, nicely played and arranged but I don't think what they're doing is anything special' ??   And what of those (whom we'll never know) who listen to an album once or twice and pull an instant rating from thin air ??  Hat's off to them coz I couldn't do it.
BTW, this thread is very interesting, and this topic is often one that gets discussed amongst my friends and I over the years. Totally valid.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 19:41
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Yeah, with all their limitations rankings are still useful, but surely you must read reviews before blindly trusting numerical rankings. That's why PA is great because it allows everybody to write reviews and not just rate so you get to read more varied points of view and opinions.
This makes the usefulness of ratings questionable.
It certainly does.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 20:10
I can fit my mind into any rating system.

Some use a five point system (Progarchives: 1-5 stars)
There's a nine point system (All Music Guide: 1-5 stars with halves)
There's a ten point system (Mark Prindle: 1-10)
There's a fifteen point system (Starostin's site: 1-15 even though he never used anything below a 3 I think)
There's a 41 point system (Game Informer: 0.00 - 10.0 with 0.25 intervals)
There's a percentile/100 point system (0 - 100% or 0.0 - 10.0, several)
There's the 'school' point system. That's basically a thirteen point system (F - A+, excepting the potential for F- and F+ as an option - Guys like Christgau use this one)
There's a sixteen point system, or hexadecimal. John McFerrin, a member of this website, uses that on his own album reviews site.
There's even a two point system 'Good or bad', 'thumbs up or thumbs down', 'yes or no' (0-1). This is the only system I don't like using. 

No matter if you use hexadecimal, letters, numbers one to ten, percentages, or some other goofball rating, you got a number of 'points' or 'potential ratings' to dish out. If you wanted to have a whacked out system that only utilized prime numerals that involved a fifty-six point system, that's as plausible as anything else. I use what I use in my head for myself alone.

When I write reviews (personal, journal-entry type things I use mostly for my own reference and practice) I jump from a 15 point system because it makes more sense to me, to a letter system which is easier on my head. If I am writing about albums, I use a 15 point system. If I'm writing about single songs (like with Hank William's 40 greatest or the Duke Ellington centennial boxset or The Bear Family Shadow of Clinch Mountain Carter Family boxset or whatever) I like using the letters 13 point system.

The ratings are only useful to me in relating how I feel about an album to myself. I'd never pretend that saying 'I'd give blah blah an eleven point nine out of fourteen' means anything specific to anyone but myself. 

It takes a special kind of record or collection of songs for me to give this rating (or higher):

A-(11/13), 13/15 (13/15), D/10 (hex - 13/16), 4.5/5 (8/9), 9/10 (9/10), 5/5 (5/5), 8.75/10 (36/41) 90%/100% - 9.0/10.0 (90/100), etc.

So far, out of the two and a half thousand albums I've heard, about 140 of them fall in that 'golden' category of major works that have heavily influenced me emotionally. This ranges from Peter Gabriel's "Melt" to Jesus Christ Superstar, from Wish You Were Here to Portishead's Dummy, from Ziggy Stardust to Abbey Road, from Gunfighter Ballads and Trail songs to Songs of Love and Hate.

The only way a rating would be viable to someone is if they included a detailed explanation of what each number meant to them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 21:03
Originally posted by Alitare
<DIV>The only way a rating would be viable to someone is if they included a detailed explanation of what each number meant to them.</DIV>[/QUOTE Alitare
The only way a rating would be viable to someone is if they included a detailed explanation of what each number meant to them.
[/QUOTE wrote:


........doing so is a futile excercise, because the qualities a listener sees in a particular album (that may be mentioned in their review), m
........doing so is a futile excercise, because the qualities a listener sees in a particular album (that may be mentioned in their review), most readers possibly may not, once they've heard the album .  There are certain points we can all agree upon, but then there's our own individual perception, which is why this seemingly pointless number rating becomes quite a necessary, and perhaps misleading overall judgement.  At the end of the day, I think reading the accounts and opinions is more rewarding and stronger than any 'number' rating.  There are so many 3 star and below albums which I've bought because the written part sounded enticing, and therefore, the 2.23 stars out of 76 ratings/reviews becomes a totally moot point.  Many of us can't fully judge the impact an album had at the time of release (say 1970) as many of us weren't even around then.  Only in hindsight, and our varying degrees of intelligence and knowledge, can we call a shot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 21:45
Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

I can fit my mind into any rating system.

Some use a five point system (Progarchives: 1-5 stars)
There's a nine point system (All Music Guide: 1-5 stars with halves)
There's a ten point system (Mark Prindle: 1-10)
There's a fifteen point system (Starostin's site: 1-15 even though he never used anything below a 3 I think)
There's a 41 point system (Game Informer: 0.00 - 10.0 with 0.25 intervals)
There's a percentile/100 point system (0 - 100% or 0.0 - 10.0, several)
There's the 'school' point system. That's basically a thirteen point system (F - A+, excepting the potential for F- and F+ as an option - Guys like Christgau use this one)
There's a sixteen point system, or hexadecimal. John McFerrin, a member of this website, uses that on his own album reviews site.
There's even a two point system 'Good or bad', 'thumbs up or thumbs down', 'yes or no' (0-1). This is the only system I don't like using. 

No matter if you use hexadecimal, letters, numbers one to ten, percentages, or some other goofball rating, you got a number of 'points' or 'potential ratings' to dish out. If you wanted to have a whacked out system that only utilized prime numerals that involved a fifty-six point system, that's as plausible as anything else. I use what I use in my head for myself alone.

When I write reviews (personal, journal-entry type things I use mostly for my own reference and practice) I jump from a 15 point system because it makes more sense to me, to a letter system which is easier on my head. If I am writing about albums, I use a 15 point system. If I'm writing about single songs (like with Hank William's 40 greatest or the Duke Ellington centennial boxset or The Bear Family Shadow of Clinch Mountain Carter Family boxset or whatever) I like using the letters 13 point system.

The ratings are only useful to me in relating how I feel about an album to myself. I'd never pretend that saying 'I'd give blah blah an eleven point nine out of fourteen' means anything specific to anyone but myself. 

It takes a special kind of record or collection of songs for me to give this rating (or higher):

A-(11/13), 13/15 (13/15), D/10 (hex - 13/16), 4.5/5 (8/9), 9/10 (9/10), 5/5 (5/5), 8.75/10 (36/41) 90%/100% - 9.0/10.0 (90/100), etc.

So far, out of the two and a half thousand albums I've heard, about 140 of them fall in that 'golden' category of major works that have heavily influenced me emotionally. This ranges from Peter Gabriel's "Melt" to Jesus Christ Superstar, from Wish You Were Here to Portishead's Dummy, from Ziggy Stardust to Abbey Road, from Gunfighter Ballads and Trail songs to Songs of Love and Hate.

The only way a rating would be viable to someone is if they included a detailed explanation of what each number meant to them.

You left out the personal and completely arbitrary system I designed for a movie review blog I used to run.
It was called "Llamatinees" and I awarded a scores based on llamas. The score would range from negative infinity to infinity llamas. Here is the review I did for The Illusionist, so you can see how it works.

 

Llamatinee: The Illusionist

WARNING: This Llamareview may or may not contain spoilers. The only way to find out is to read it.

 

Huzzah for magic! Who doesn't love a good magic show? If the answer is you, then you should probably leave now.

Plus two llamas for Edward Norton's smashing performance, with just a hint of an Austrian accent. Norton is one of my favorite actors and I feel he gets far to little recognition. Hopefully, that will change soon.

Plus a llama for Eastern Europe, the best part of Europe (sorry, Scandinavia.)

Plus three llamas for exquisitely wonderful facial hair all around. It's going to come back into style, mark my words.

Minus a llama for never getting to see Budapest. I was so looking forward to that.

Plus two more llamas for the illusions themselves, perhaps the most elegant and charming that I've seen, which is surprising since Hollywood special effects should have made such things unimpressive by now.

Plus a llama for Rufus Sewell's drunk acting. Lots of actors have a hard time making drunk look realistic. This is unacceptable, given the amount of real life practice they've had. Well done, Rufus. Also, I like your name. Rufus.

Finally, plus 4 llamas for an ending which I don't think anyone expected. I won't spoil it for you, but it's great.

 

Grand Total: 12 llamas! Even with David Bowie, the Prestige is going to have to work really hard to top this one.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 22:27
^ are there little llama symbols next to the review?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 22:32
No, I didn't have that kind of technical sophistication back in those days.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 13:55
Aaahhh, i have found a thread concerning the rating system.... so i will write my thought inside this one.Smile

Well, i have some "problems" with the "5 star amazon rating system". In my opinion, it does not offer enough space to make special differences.

For me, a 15 point rating system works much better. I always translate the 5 star system into this one.

5 stars -15, 14 and 13 points
4 stars - 12, 11, 10
3 stars - 9, 8, 7
2 stars - 6,5,4
1 star - 3, 2, 1

For me, normally only albums with 10 points plus are really worth buying. The exception proves the rule. WinkFor my taste, this works very well. Regarding this rating scheme, i refer to the "babyblauen-seiten". 

When i look at progarchives it seems, that 3,5 points as an average rating are (for me!) equivalent to "my 10 point experiences".  Therefore,  albums with 3,5 plus points are worth buying....Smile

greetings from germany

j.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 14:07
5- Nearly flawless, mindblowing, perfect
4.5- Nearly flawless, superb
4.0-Some minor flaws but excellent
3.5-Substantial flaws, but still great
3.0- Substantial flaws, but still quite enjoyable
2.5- Deeply flawed, has some enjoyable elements while many elements are either poor or mediocre. Mediocre
2.0- Listenable, with a few enjoyable elements, but very flawed.
1.5- Barely listenable, but listenable nonetheless. Poor.
1.0- Terrible, and unlistenable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2012 at 21:15
Originally posted by QuestionableScum QuestionableScum wrote:

5- Nearly flawless, mindblowing, perfect
4.5- Nearly flawless, superb
4.0-Some minor flaws but excellent
3.5-Substantial flaws, but still great
3.0- Substantial flaws, but still quite enjoyable
2.5- Deeply flawed, has some enjoyable elements while many elements are either poor or mediocre. Mediocre
2.0- Listenable, with a few enjoyable elements, but very flawed.
1.5- Barely listenable, but listenable nonetheless. Poor.
1.0- Terrible, and unlistenable.
Best system yet.  Totally agree.
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Belief is not Truth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2013 at 02:19
Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

What does each star rating mean when you give it?

5.0: Masterpiece; perfect or just about perfect
4.5: Amazing; almost a masterpiece but not quite
4.0: Great; no major flaws
3.5: Got some bad songs, but mostly awesome
3.0: Mixed; a lot of ups and downs
2.5: Forgettable
and 2.0 to 0.5 are varying degrees of bad

This pretty much explains it for me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 13:05
5.  Great - the best
4.  Not as good as 5 but better than 3
3.  Not as good as 4 but better than 2
2. Not as good as 3 but better than 1
1. Crap - the worst
Haiku

Writing a poem
With seventeen syllables
Is very diffic....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 13:07
Originally posted by Green Shield Stamp Green Shield Stamp wrote:

5.  Great - the best
4.  Not as good as 5 but better than 3
3.  Not as good as 4 but better than 2
2. Not as good as 3 but better than 1
1. Crap - the worst

Yep. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 13:42
I proposed a .5 stars system

5 stars: Essential, a Masterpiece of Progressive Rock
4.5 stars: Not a masterpiece (even wen close to this status), still essential for any Prog Collection
4 stars: Excellent addition to any prog music collection
3.5 stars: Excelent addition to most fans of the genre
3 stars: Good but not essential
2.5 stars: Average
2 stars: Collectors and fans only
1.5 stars: Diehard fans only
1 Star: Poor. Only for completionists
0.5 stars: Better avoid it
 
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2013 at 19:13
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ You are missing the point. An artist works so hard, puts so much love and care into a work that cannot be understood by everyone on this globe, and he gets a f$%king star or two for the work? Who are we to say that we are at the liberty to judge someone's music based on what we like? Discrimination is what it is, and the rating system is a means to do that.*

* Sorry for sounding a bit like a radical. Just trying to sell a point.

It's not necessary that only a lack of understanding of the work would call for a low rating.   In spite of an artist working so hard and putting so much love and care and all that, it may still be a terrible album and most albums out there are either terrible or mediocre or dull.   If we don't distinguish between the mediocre and the brilliant and average out the ratings to a 4-plus uniformly (which often happens in corporate appraisals, by the way), we are only discriminating against brilliant artists.   

But I do not subscribe to rating an album ONLY based on personal taste, especially an older work where the listener has had the time to work out its context and possible significance or lack thereof.   When you say an album is essential or not, you must consider whether it could indeed be an essential album for the general demographic of this website and I don't believe that is anywhere as hard as is made out to be a lot of times.  If the reason you want to rate and review is because you can't stand the high ratings/low ratings for some artists and want to 'balance' the equation, please don't.   This is unfortunately where not only this but most review websites get biased and distorted.   I don't necessarily buy the concept of holy cows, but if you don't like an acknowledged classic the first time you hear it, that's not the time to rush to the comp to draft a flaming rant.    Just get on a social network or even the PA forum to vent your disgust but a review should be a carefully considered and thought out exercise.   Better not attempted if you don't want to invest that much effort in it.
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