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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2012 at 21:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Do you really need to ask this question.
Well, yes. Your very good answer proves the futility of your rather arrogant condescending question. If I ask a question it is because, an idiot compared to you as I am, I want to read people's opinions, including, very importantly, yours.  I have said that the glorification of guns as anything other than defense tools is sad. I want guns to be available for purchase as defense tools at home. I grew up without guns and without the need to think on guns so I have no problem seeing guns as whet they are: killing tools. 

And yes, a 10 year-old learning to kill in a game might get the wrong ideas, specially if he hasn't been shown the value of others. 


Edited by The T - December 22 2012 at 21:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2012 at 21:50
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

David Frum (the last sensible Conservative, IMO) completely TORE APART the "we need a federal agent in every school" argument:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/22/we-need-a-federal-agent.html

Look at all the links....

NRA doesn't have a leg to stand on, and they know it.  Or they are completely Schizo.  Either one could be true, actually.

...heh heh...we need a Federal Agent at every Federal Agency....
We need a federal agent on ProgArchives...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 02:54
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Do you really need to ask this question.
Well, yes. Your very good answer proves the futility of your rather arrogant condescending question. If I ask a question it is because, an idiot compared to you as I am, I want to read people's opinions, including, very importantly, yours.  I have said that the glorification of guns as anything other than defense tools is sad. I want guns to be available for purchase as defense tools at home. I grew up without guns and without the need to think on guns so I have no problem seeing guns as whet they are: killing tools. 

And yes, a 10 year-old learning to kill in a game might get the wrong ideas, specially if he hasn't been shown the value of others. 
If I ask if you need to ask a question it is because I regarded it as more or less rhetorical given the demographic of the people here, including myself - no one would say that violent video games lead to violence in real life and therefore no one would call for the banning or control of video games (other than any pre-existent content age-rating system) - it was a figure of speech nothing more. If that makes me appear arrogant and condescending then so be it, if you feel yourself to be an idiot compared to me, then so be it.

Edited by Dean - December 23 2012 at 02:55
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 04:28
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


What an idiotic - and highly unoriginal - quote.   I thought he had a better mind than that.

He has - even smart people say dumb things, even people who say things I generally agree with can say things I vehemently disagree with. Put back into context Jillette's quote doesn't look quite so idiotic:
 
Quote “Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people. We have no proof that the bad, stupid crazy people who have planted bombs in the past few years used the phone much for their stupid bad crimes, let alone logged on the Internet. Yet when those kind of bad things happen nowadays, the government tries to do bad things to phones and the Net. The phones and the Internet are just good smart things, and the government should leave them alone. You have to watch the government all the time on everything. Thomas Jefferson didn't say that, but he said something very close to that.”
 
Which leads to the question - is a gun a good smart thing?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 04:34
That is one of the most incomprehensible statements I've ever seen in print, I don't know if I could think of enough adjectives so I'll use satire -

"Bad people and bad things and phones and other bad, bad things in the world and the internet and bad and.. BLAAGHH !!"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 09:55
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


What an idiotic - and highly unoriginal - quote.   I thought he had a better mind than that.



IDK...seems pretty accurate.
We've gone over how criminals will obviously break gun laws, (they are criminals after all) that seems pretty obvious. Good, law abiding people would end up following the law so yeah, while the outcry for safety is understandable it's only good people that would be affected.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 09:58
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

2013 us going to be a rough year.   Brace yourselves...


Ah cmon can't post apocalyptic quotes like that and leave, very cliche and lame!

How so?

A wave on gun tragedies sweep the nation?

Because hate to say it, but isn't any gun killing a tragedy? Not to take away from the poor souls affected, but while these massive shootings are more shocking people die every day....guess that's not tragic. It's not even newsworthy!
Every year is a rough year....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 10:20
Yeah, what gives Slart with that quote? 

The media tells us the economy is getting better, all the right people won the election, health care won, immigration won, the evil conservative people have been rebuked, religion is dead, constitution is dead, ron paul is gone, every man woman and child can now overdose on the Obama love and progressive pixie love dust. 

Why the long face?  I'm going to enjoy all the miracles to follow in the new wonderful USA. Tongue


Edited by Finnforest - December 23 2012 at 10:21
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 10:29
haha right? The big time lefties have everything they want rolling their way, guess they are just impatient!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 11:08
If you haven't yet figured out Slartibartfast's way of talking, I think he was speaking to what he calls "right wingers" or "guntards" basically saying "brae yourselves, 2013 will be a tough year for you because we'll take away your guns you redneck morons". That's my guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 11:29
yeah i know I was just trying to have a little fun in these threads that are such a drag.  i'm pretty much done reading all of this stuff.  we've made our bed now in the US so let's see what happens.  back to the music for me, it's way more fun than this bs. 
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 14:56
Ah, I was thinking more like even though some type of gun law will be passed it won't be enough because we gotta ban em! Nevermind all the logic why that's pointless we needa ban emLOL

Hey I'm the anti gun nut here, I personally disapprove of hunting for sport even, which got me called a hippie, (boy hippie, greedy wealthy loving b*****d...I can't win!) sooo gun laws have no personal impact on me.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 15:56
There are kids in this world who are vunerable and take video games and violence in films seriously. As Marilyn Manson once stated 'You are watching an abundance of violence on the news, they take a commercial break and mention that if young boys have pimples..girls won't be interested in having sex with them. Then back to more violence in the news. Keep everyone afraid and make profit through fear and consumption. You can talk to a child until you are blue in the face and in the end the blame is placed upon the parents. Children do not understand abstract thinking , but after watching Spongebob squarepants for a week they suddenly speak like a sarcastic adult. Try that with your kid and see for yourself. 12 year old girls dressed  like adult women on commercials. They make zillions of dollars when life is represented through violent acts and scripts that revolve around having total sarcastic disrespect for parents. Brilliant! So it's our flippin' fault right? Just beautiful. When I gave music instruction to special ed students they talked about their Columbine heroes and I re-programmed their minds to be interested in life as one big picture instead of one path that leads to disaster. They listened to me instead of their parents only because of my position. I think that is truly sad. It's a debate with adults regarding media actually having an impact on a teenager's mind. But again why must obnoxious attitudes be written in stone for our children to follow? Many of them find violence to be laughable. What is the point? Education is to think for yourself . What is your honest opinion of Plato or J. Edgar Hoover..lol! Seriously though...If you are educated you should stop and think really hard after your history test. Media coverage in music promotes the usual suspects and kids have no reason to research anything other than what is being broadcasted. Especially kids who depend on trend mongers for their personal education. It's hoping for too much that the world could change, but I remember when the world was quite different and a kid's choices varied.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 16:53
Yes, in that same film Michael Moore also made the point if you wanna lay ALL the blame on things like that, why can't you also blame Bush? He started 2 wars, supported aggressive military use, wanted to waltz all over the world...why can't young kids see all that on the news and speeches and think "YAY! violence is awesome, and our President is about it and he's the President!"

What Manson also said was much more appropriate I thought: When asked what he would've said to the Columbine shooters his reply was: Nothing, I would've listened to them which no one ever did.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 19:33
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, in that same film Michael Moore also made the point if you wanna lay ALL the blame on things like that, why can't you also blame Bush? He started 2 wars, supported aggressive military use, wanted to waltz all over the world...why can't young kids see all that on the news and speeches and think "YAY! violence is awesome, and our President is about it and he's the President!"

What Manson also said was much more appropriate I thought: When asked what he would've said to the Columbine shooters his reply was: Nothing, I would've listened to them which no one ever did.


I have never payed enough attention to politics to have a intelligent conversation with anyone in particular and that is my whole problem. I have no business conversing with anyone, but I do understand your points and appreciate them. I have difficulties in understanding the interest in violence today and since a child I have always thought of violence as moronic. Logically it is senseless even for self defense if someone has to suffer extreme physical injury or die. Even if the bad guy dies the act is senseless or the end result (so to speak), it comes across being a huge mistake and the majority of time a innocent person who minds there own business is put in a position to defend themself against some crazed knife puller or lover of guns and violence. That entire isolated encounter is just stupied and a waste of human energy because it changes nothing in the so called misfit hated by the bully. If you desire to box then keep it professional and don't make it the business of those who clearly have no interest in it. I..like everyone else in my age group observes cartoon characters bodies exploding or heads cut off and it's so part of the norm today? huh? I recall Monty Python doing this sort of thing but it was creative British humour derived from their fantastic mind boggling culture. As teenagers we laughed and thought it was avant humour , but we didn't feel that the solution was to shoot the bullies at school. Which that idea is cowardly and also the idea of taking all the innocent people out with you is the act of a insane person who is acting like a poor little baby. Like a 10 year old who breaks up his younger brother and sister's toys because of a misfortune of their own.

I feel shocked by violence in America and have difficulties accepting it's magnitude. The various anti-bully programs in schools are painful for parents to deal with. If your child repeats something disturbing they heard on the bus you as a parent are questionable in the minds of the school staff. I live in a communitythat is polluted with dairy queens, pick up trucks, and rodeos. There is pressure for children to smile and be out going in personality. Every shy kid is evaluated like a mental patient since Columbine. It is very over-played as every child is made to feel there is something wrong with them and don't think for a moment they can't pick up onthat concept. With thousands of innocent fearful children being naturally shy they must now face the foundation of burden because of high school shooters who just happened to be shy also. It's the psychology war plan of Normandy Beach in the 40's. Send all the American soliders in , let them get slaughtered until we break through to defeat the Germans. Hassle every shy kid until we find the correct moron who will potentially shoot up a school. Do you feel that is our only alternative to rule outthe good from the bad?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2012 at 20:00
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


What an idiotic - and highly unoriginal - quote.   I thought he had a better mind than that.

He has - even smart people say dumb things, even people who say things I generally agree with can say things I vehemently disagree with. Put back into context Jillette's quote doesn't look quite so idiotic:
 
Quote “Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people. We have no proof that the bad, stupid crazy people who have planted bombs in the past few years used the phone much for their stupid bad crimes, let alone logged on the Internet. Yet when those kind of bad things happen nowadays, the government tries to do bad things to phones and the Net. The phones and the Internet are just good smart things, and the government should leave them alone. You have to watch the government all the time on everything. Thomas Jefferson didn't say that, but he said something very close to that.”
 
Which leads to the question - is a gun a good smart thing?
 


I agree.  Comparing guns (whose sole function is to kill and maim) to a telephone and the internet (whose primary purpose is communication and information exchange) seems a pretty far stretch to me. 

As to those who are saying only good people will follow the law and bad people will still break it, of course they will.  This isn't a short-term solution.  In fact, there is no short-term solution.  The long-term solution is to eventually cut off the supply to the bad guys by making guns extremely hard to get ahold of, in any market.  Many times the government has had to take a leading role in shifting and shaping the attitudes of its citizens to get the country where it needs to go.  This is just one more instance where we need to slowly eliminate the love we have for our killing machines.  That's going to take small steps and laws that slowly push things in that direction.  We're not going to solve the problem overnight, but if we can start to fix the problem now, maybe our children's children's children can go to school without having to be afraid for their lives. 

As an aside, I've seen a couple of these Penn quotes here recently.  I was never a fan of his to begin with.  So now a second rate entertainer has become the voice of a fringe movement?  Confused
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2012 at 14:23
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

yeah i know I was just trying to have a little fun in these threads that are such a drag.  i'm pretty much done reading all of this stuff.  we've made our bed now in the US so let's see what happens.  back to the music for me, it's way more fun than this bs. 

OK, how about we hang you by the neck until you cheer up then? Tongue  We could also garrotte you with used guitar strings.  Or would prefer the ignominity of that to fresh ones?


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 24 2012 at 14:24
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 14:30
I've lost track of this thread, but I think I know a good solution to all of this.

No matter what we do, there will still be someone who is crazy who will do crazy things to innocent people. No matter what we do, whether guns are outlawed or laws are made stricter, someone who wants to hard enough, will find access to guns (or other weapons) and use them to harm others.

But.......

What if a single bullet cost $50,000? or $100,000?

I think that would bring down the rate of firing a gun down considerably, no?





Edited by darkshade - December 27 2012 at 14:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 14:33
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

I've lost track of this thread, but I think I know a good solution to all of this.

No matter what we do, there will still be someone who is crazy who will do crazy things to innocent people. No matter what we do, whether guns are outlawed or laws are made stricter, someone who wants to hard enough, will find access to guns (or other weapons) and use them to harm others.

But.......

What if a single bullet cost $50,000? or $100,000?

I think that would bring down the rate of firing a gun down considerably, no?




We could call it the Chris Rock law. Wink

By the way, there are no single bullet solutions to all of this.


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 27 2012 at 14:34
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 14:41
Chris Rock law would be fine with me.

Reading the last couple of pages, I have to quote Frank Zappa:

"The United States is a nation of laws; badly written and randomly enforced" - FZ
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