Guns, mass shootings, and related.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Exactly how many crimes are committed using stolen firearms?

Edited by Dean - December 19 2012 at 18:44

timothy leary wrote: It is not guns it is killing. We need to stop sensationalizing it.

Indeed.
It always flares up after a huge tragedy, and I get that, but gun crimes happen every day.
Some random person being killed by a gun in Iowa is a tragedy, but it goes unnoticed and few at all would care.
These mass shootings almost always have some link to mental illness, I'd think that's the main factor

Exactly my point, through sensationalizing killing we become desensitized and only bizzare mass murders and insanity will pique our interest. We are junkies.

Getting beyond the philosophy and such, how would someone like to see guns outlawed or kept out of the hands of criminals? Real life here...
A law simply won't do it, criminals already break the law....they're gunna obey a gun ban? There would have to be some hardcore crackdown, which (like prohibition) would be massively difficult. What if you can do it, what about people with guns already? They have em...would you go with the police to every single house and take them?

Again, no beef with sensible gun laws, but banning guns and things like that...I just don't see how it's physically possible



Edited by JJLehto - December 19 2012 at 19:24

JJLehto wrote: Getting beyond the philosophy and such, how would someone like to see guns outlawed or kept out of the hands of criminals? Real life here... A law simply won't do it, criminals already break the law....they're gunna obey a gun ban? There would have to be some hardcore crackdown, which (like prohibition) would be massively difficult. What if you can do it, what about people with guns already? They have em...would you go with the police to every single house and take them? Again, no beef with sensible gun laws, but banning guns and things like that...I just don't see how it's physically possible

It took 100 years to reduce gun ownership in the UK - there is no easy fix. There is no total ban on gun ownerhsip here, yet the rate of gun ownership is now incredibly low and the total number of death by firearms per 100,000 population is 40 times lower than in the USA. Culturally there isn't a lot of difference between the USA and the UK - we're a nasty, violent race who has picked fights with more nations than currently exist on earth - if we can do it anyone can.

Dean wrote: If your concern is the fiscal cost then there is little for me to discuss. This is why I asked if is it possible to support gun control without libertarian idealism crumbling at your fingertips?

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. Are we supposed to discuss any policy without regards to cost (I don't remember mentioning on fiscal)? I mean if we want to do that then by all means lets. I propose a plan to execute anyone suspected of the desire to own a gun. That will surely solve the issue.

Where is my libertarian idealism exactly? The only thing I find idealistic is the notion than governmental policy is going to change a prevailing social issue for the first time in history. 

hmm... time for bed I think.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Guldbamsen wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Guldbamsen wrote: The native American's. Oh yeah because tribes didn't go to war over hunting grounds and water sources. I am not saying that the Europeans invented war here. Of course native Americans went to war with each other before the arrival of the freakin Mayflower. They just didn't have guns, and yes I know it's possible to kill without them - but it's much easier and they bring a certain convenience into the picture - yet that isn't my point. I don't think they would have snuffed off the entire population of natives had they been left alone by the settlers, but that is just guessing.    So basically you're just speculating. As I said, all land ownership if you trace it back far enough came by force. We just happen to be a young country.

According to THIS there are a whole 17 countries whose current sovereignty predates the US. So, no, not so much. I have not researched in depth, but I am positive that 235 years is on the extremely high end of time for countries to exist. The exception being the empires.


Edited by Tapfret - December 19 2012 at 22:57

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Where is my libertarian idealism exactly? The only thing I find idealistic is the notion than governmental policy is going to change a prevailing social issue for the first time in history.

Have I misunderstood the libertarian "no regulation" stance? If libertarianism isn't for deregulation and non-regulation then what is it for?

CCVP wrote: Brazil has one of the strictest gun policies in the Americas and we still have alarming rates of gunfire crimes/murder. Just some kilometers north of where I live there are over 60 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants and where I live the figures are around 40 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants, way above the US medium.  Are any of those crimes committed with legally acquired guns and ammunition?  A mere fraction. Still, I do believe that selling some types of firearms to civilians a bit too much, like rifles and such.

That is a perfectly valid observation - treating the symptom does not cure the disease, it is necessary to do both to effect the desired result - regulation of the means of killing without addressing cause of killing is not a cure. If a kid is hitting other kids with a baseball bat the first course of action is to take away the bat, then you look to why he wants to hurt others - you don't enter that discourse while he is sat next to a pile of baseball bats. At some point in time all those illegally owned guns were legally produced and sold.

Edited by Dean - December 20 2012 at 05:57